Author Topic: Bombed conversation (RE: GTB Ursa)  (Read 10823 times)

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Offline Dragon

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Bombed conversation (RE: GTB Ursa)
Yeah, pretty much this. The only problem are the angled missile pods, which contradict not only the original model, but also some mainhall images where the bomber clearly sits on those pods. Ursa is used in a few cinematics, so having a disconnect such as that would feel weird, IMO.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Yeah, pretty much this. The only problem are the angled missile pods, which contradict not only the original model, but also some mainhall images where the bomber clearly sits on those pods.
Yeah but the angled ones look better, and that's more important.

Hades: The beams the leg engines are attached to looked better when they weren't angled.

 

Offline Dragon

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They don't and it isn't, IMO. It's also important to maintain consistency. Unless someone wants to remake all the cutscenes and mainhalls with angled pod Ursa, I'd rather have them rectangular. And even then, I'd like it better with rectangular pods.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Hades thinks they look better, and so do most of the people he's asked about them.  That matters more.

And if you think this is not retail enough, you should have seen some of the stuff he and I discussed.

 

Offline Dragon

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It will be jarring in comparison to cutscenes, simple as that. Ursa features prominently in Bastion's mainhall as well. We'll see what other people in this thread will say, but I think that the rectangular pods are an important part of the look, as well. At least you're not trying to do something bizzare with this design, but I think that detail should be reconsidered.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Angled pods look aestetically pleasing... which an Ursa shouldn't be. The Ursa is supposed to be edgy and ugly, so I too would prefer the rectangular pods even before considering cutscenes and mainhalls.

 
Yeah, I prefer the rectangular ones.
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Offline Raven2001

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I gotta go with the rectangular pods opinion on this. Not for canon reasons per se, but rather I don't think that they really fit with the rest of the design language. They make the Ursa look flimsy when seen from the front.  Maybe if you didn't angle them so much (effectively ending up with a chamfered box) or if only the interior sides are angled, it could change the overall feel.
Also, I wouldn't mind seeing the side barrels having the signature triangular shape, that was quite a unique feature in the Ursa, IMO.

But I'm liking how it's coming along otherwise :)
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Offline BirdofPrey

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Well, I really don't care about keeping closely to the originals, as long as the silhouette is the same and it still looks like the old ship somewhat.  As I said, I think the pointed bottoms look odd for what the ship is.

My main thing is that, I do sort of like rounding off the lower part of the pods, but I think it needs to have some sort of broad, flat surface on the bottom.  A chamfered rectangle would be great, but right now it looks more like a pentagon with the bottom point chamfered.

Now that I think about it, just losing the inside slope would make the ship look more properly bulky (to mirror the shape on the top of the bomber), and reinforce the fact it lands on those boxes.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 02:58:19 pm by BirdofPrey »
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Offline BritishShivans

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Yeah, something like that would work. It'd keep the angular theme Hades has going while making the pods look more like the Ursa rests on those things for ages.

I also noticed the top intake things? I wonder what Hades is gonna do with those. I remember them being on the MediaVPs and retail Ursa, but flatter.

 

Offline Dragon

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i love how dragon's comments are as always literally just "waaah i don't like it and i don't understand how people can have different aesthetic preferences to me cater to me only pls"
Did you actually bother to read what I said? From what it sounds like, you never did. This is not about anyone's "aesthetic preferences". This is about not having the ship changes shapes between the mission and cutscene. He's not making this ship from scratch, Ursa is a well-established design present in various places outside gameplay. It is supposed to be the same ship both here and there, making such a big, noticeable change is a bad idea (especially if you're not going to redo CBanims featuring it). Which you'd have known if you bothered to read my posts.

Plus, people seem to be inclined towards rectangular pods. So it's not just my opinion, looks like that is actually the preferred configuration. Seeing as it's supposed to land on those pods, I'm hardly surprised. Making the pods like this takes away from the "flying crate" aesthetic of the Ursa, in addition to creating inconsistencies within the game.

 
I didn't really mind the pods at first but I've come to prefer having them with flat bases. It's the basic concept of the Ursa, after all: a big rectangle full of bombs.
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Offline Axem

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I like the new style of pods, I had completely forgotten that they were big blocks and looking back on it, I don't think it destroys the look of the ship. You're not going to mistake the Ursa for anything new, the profile is still unmistakable. Now I do think perhaps the "bevel level" (trademark pending) could be reduced a bit, but for the sole reason of having more of those beautiful extra large bomb exit ports.

When you're modelling you need to have a consistent design scheme or else the end result is an unbalanced mess. If the core of the ship has nice bevels and slopes, and then suddenly the bomb bays are giant rectangles, they stick out like sore thumbs. Also the new shape of the bomb bays matches with the rear engines, they all have a slight taper to them. The angled intakes that are directly above the bomb bays also complete a sort of symmetry to the engine block shape.

Whatever Hades does, the end model is going to look a lot different than the one in cbanis or mainhalls, if he keeps it more blocky or not. It's just the price we pay when we upgrade models. No one complained that the Orion or Arcadia looked too different than in the pre-rendered materials before. It's just progress!

And I don't quite get one of the reasons that it needs large flat bomb bays because it lands on them. Have you seen how relatively tiny landing gear is on planes? The bomber isn't going to tip over or anything.

 
I mean, I'd ask what the rest of the ship needs bevels and slopes for before I'd use them as a justification for putting them on the bomb bay.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline The Dagger

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Because bevels look good. Stuff without bevels don't look "industrial" or "boxy", it just looks badly modeled. Look for any hard surface modeling example and you'll find tons of beveling.

 
I don't mean small bevels on corners to keep them from being infinitely sharp right angles, I mean this weird obsession with making every model from retail look like it's been through a rock tumbler.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Breaking up right angles is a really good way of adding more visual interest to a simple shape.

 
Right, but it's not the only way and it gets boring when it's used exclusively.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Dragon

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Whatever Hades does, the end model is going to look a lot different than the one in cbanis or mainhalls, if he keeps it more blocky or not. It's just the price we pay when we upgrade models. No one complained that the Orion or Arcadia looked too different than in the pre-rendered materials before. It's just progress!
Nobody complained because they don't. Neither Orion nor Arcadia have radical departures from the designs seen in pre-rendered materials. Indeed, one of the greatest things about the Arcadia is that it's wonderfully detailed, but does not really contradict cutscenes in which it appears. I think that angled pods are too much of a departure.

Well, that, and I guess I'll have to agree with PH (however unlikely it seems ;) ). Many models FSU models have been "smoothed" as a way of making them look more detailed. Bevels on the corners to keep them from being perfect right angles are good. Beveling the hell out of the model to make it look more "visually interesting", on the other hand, is something that is easily overdone. It's not too bad on other models (though there were some cases where it was, but people complained enough for it to get fixed), but Ursa just plain suffers from it.

Another thing is that it makes Ursa look more modern. Which is a bad thing, IMO. Ursa always had a very crude look, like a crate full of bombs. It goes well with its handling and role. Anything that detracts from that look, like pronounced curves, triangular bomb bays and such is not needed there.

 

Offline Aesaar

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So yeah, yet another case of "not retail enough".