[BTAvatar]

That was absolutely stunning storytelling. As the point of view changes in the last mission the story became creepier and creepier. Personally I'd love to see more of this. Well done indeed.

[NGTM-1R]

You seem to be having some kind of trouble thinking about this campaign. The important thing here is the questions being asked. It doesn't have to fit into the universe as some kind of GTVA or NTF training simulation. Did the Transcendent belong to the NTF or the GTVA? Nooooo.

I just find it really odd that you can't acknowledge the value of the questions this campaign is asking. Because Allied Command does makes these choices daily.

And I'm point out that if Command really is making these kind of choices, then Command needs to be stood against the nearest wall and shot. He's not doing his job, or at least not right.

[General Battuta]

You seem to be having some kind of trouble thinking about this campaign. The important thing here is the questions being asked. It doesn't have to fit into the universe as some kind of GTVA or NTF training simulation. Did the Transcendent belong to the NTF or the GTVA? Nooooo.

I just find it really odd that you can't acknowledge the value of the questions this campaign is asking. Because Allied Command does makes these choices daily.

And I'm point out that if Command really is making these kind of choices, then Command needs to be stood against the nearest wall and shot. He's not doing his job, or at least not right.

Oh, c'mon. Play the damn campaign before you comment on it.

You've got a group of military and civilian ships and limited resources to protect them. (Say it's a convoy running the heck away from Capella.) Take it as a given that they've got to get from point A to point B with risk of attack. Of course you have to allocate your resources somehow. In what fairy tale land could you get out of it? Do you want to pull a Janeway and find the third option that lets you get out of every hard choice?

Do you call in that cruiser for fire support, knowing it could draw bombers? Do you call reinforcements, knowing they might be used better elsewhere? Do you send your stealth fighters to help a friendly warship at the potential cost of the overall mission?

These are pretty damn realistic scenarios, NGTM-1R. And someone with your military background should be practically salivating over the degree of tactical and strategic depth they offer.

As if that wasn't bad enough, the FS2 main campaign is full of these scenarios. "Several Allied warships are still in the nebula. We can wait no longer. Proceed with demolition of the portal." Or, perhaps, "The third convoy group has entered the field of engagement. Blah-blah-blah, a medical ship, and blah-blah are now headed for the Capella node." Do you ditch the existing convoy and head for them?

These are choices we, as players, face in many a mission.

[Mobius]

I've enjoyed the campaign, but I found those "What are you going to do now, sir?" situations a bit forced. In reality, Command should do whatever it takes to prevent those situations from happening in the first place. They may happen, but surely not in the daily routine...and I don't think you can base training simulations on rare events.

Even having to make that kind of decisions may be considered a defeat: no matter of your decision, something bad is going to happen.

Battuta: I don't think the main campaign is a good example, either. We all know that the player is (and is supposed to be) the equivalent of who knows how many fighters or bombers, so we can't base scenarios on "I have 2-3 wings available, what should I do with them?" - the number of available forces may be various and off the schemes we all know. Keep in mind that FreeSpace is a series in which 8 fighters are supposed to protect destroyers from relentless attacks even if there are many additional forces available to do that. Don't forget that FS is a game.


Other than that, I would have really liked to see this as a pure minicampaign set anywhere/anytime in the FreeSpace Universe, and not as a simulation. IMO, it would have been more realistic and enjoyable, and would have also lacked the creep-creep factor that belongs to a different genre of campaigns, like Trascend and Sync.

[NGTM-1R]

I've enjoyed the campaign, but I found those "What are you going to do now, sir?" situations a bit forced. In reality, Command should do whatever it takes to prevent those situations from happening in the first place. They may happen, but surely not in the daily routine...and I don't think you can base training simulations on rare events.

Nail on the head.

[General Battuta]

I've enjoyed the campaign, but I found those "What are you going to do now, sir?" situations a bit forced. In reality, Command should do whatever it takes to prevent those situations from happening in the first place. They may happen, but surely not in the daily routine...and I don't think you can base training simulations on rare events.

Nail on the head.

Nail on the head, but he's disagreeing with you: 'they may happen, but surely not in the daily routine...'

As you'd say, NGTM-1R, you don't train just for the daily routine, you train for the worst-case scenario.

Of course you base training simulations on rare events. You just don't base all of them.

And to turn your own metagame arguments back on you, Mobius, in how many campaigns do you fly totally uneventful patrols or escorts? In spite of the fact that they probably make up the majority of such missions?

Look, I see your objection: Command shouldn't let these scenarios happen. Yet they clearly do. As in the case of the withdrawing-from-the-nebula scenario, in spite of everyone's best efforts, sometimes hard choices have to be made.

This is a Freespace version of the Kobayashi Maru.

I've enjoyed the campaign, but I found those "What are you going to do now, sir?" situations a bit forced. In reality, Command should do whatever it takes to prevent those situations from happening in the first place. They may happen, but surely not in the daily routine...and I don't think you can base training simulations on rare events.

Even having to make that kind of decisions may be considered a defeat: no matter of your decision, something bad is going to happen.

Battuta: I don't think the main campaign is a good example, either. We all know that the player is (and is supposed to be) the equivalent of who knows how many fighters or bombers, so we can't base scenarios on "I have 2-3 wings available, what should I do with them?" - the number of available forces may be various and off the schemes we all know. Keep in mind that FreeSpace is a series in which 8 fighters are supposed to protect destroyers from relentless attacks even if there are many additional forces available to do that. Don't forget that FS is a game.


Other than that, I would have really liked to see this as a pure minicampaign set anywhere/anytime in the FreeSpace Universe, and not as a simulation. IMO, it would have been more realistic and enjoyable, and would have also lacked the creep-creep factor that belongs to a different genre of campaigns, like Trascend and Sync.

THE MAIN CAMPAIGN IS CANON. DEAL WITH IT. STOP THE FANWANK BEFORE YOU GET A CRAMP.

Play on Insane, dude. Alpha 1 ain't nothin' special -- just a skilled pilot. And eight fighters are damn well plenty to protect a modern carrier, so why aren't they good enough for an FS2 destroyer? You have no idea if additional forces are available.

This campaign is meant to make you understand WHY there aren't other forces available to relieve Alpha 1.

Garsh, where's Snail when I need him?

[NGTM-1R]

As you'd say, NGTM-1R, you don't train just for the daily routine, you train for the worst-case scenario.

You let the trainee work themselves into the worst-case scenario (which, I admit, mission 4 did, though in a rather forced manner) rather than thrusting it upon them so blatantly. You don't simply present them with a losing scenario and say "solve it", that doesn't help as much as showing them how things got to this point in the first place. (It makes for good gaming, though.)

[General Battuta]

As you'd say, NGTM-1R, you don't train just for the daily routine, you train for the worst-case scenario.

You let the trainee work themselves into the worst-case scenario (which, I admit, mission 4 did, though in a rather forced manner) rather than thrusting it upon them so blatantly. You don't simply present them with a losing scenario and say "solve it", that doesn't help as much as showing them how things got to this point in the first place.

And again you're asking this to be a realistic recreation of commander training in the GTVA.

It's a piece of literature, not a documentary.

Which is not to say it's not realistic. But it can jump into the narrative wherever it damn well pleases -- including the assumption that you're under unusual circumstances or that your character has already undergone hours and hours of more basic training.

I think your criticism is irresponsible. This is a staggering piece of FREDing and the most original work we've seen in years. You're criticizing it on essentially spurious ground. What you want would have utterly destroyed the pacing, atmosphere, and message of the text.

[NGTM-1R]

Well, I did excuse that. Just not quickly enough.

[General Battuta]

My apologies. I see it now.

I think we're probably not disagreeing any more, then.

[Ghost]

Wow, this was incredible. I'd love to see more of this style, if at all possible.

[Scotty]

I can't get it to show up, am I doing something wrong?

1) click download
2) navigate to Computer/Games/FS2
3) save as default option (RAR file)

Then nothing shows up, and I can't find it anywhere.

[Mongoose]

Extracting the campaign from its .rar archive might be a good place to start.

[Scotty]

*headdesk*

[Rhymes]

 

[übermetroid]

Actually, Ender was a careful balance between psychosis and emotion. His brother Peter was rejected as too ruthless, unlikely to earn the loyalty of his men, and his sister Valentine was considered too soft and emotional.

Read some of the other books.  Peter was rejected because he was not ruthless enough.  This information comes out when Bean is being used to fight the world and Peter is not.

[General Battuta]

Actually, Ender was a careful balance between psychosis and emotion. His brother Peter was rejected as too ruthless, unlikely to earn the loyalty of his men, and his sister Valentine was considered too soft and emotional.

Read some of the other books.  Peter was rejected because he was not ruthless enough.  This information comes out when Bean is being used to fight the world and Peter is not.

I've read them, but that seems like a retcon -- for purposes of this discussion I'm just paying attention to 'Ender's Game'.

[Retsof]

Okay I just played this, and it was a good story and displayed excelent FREDing.  But I dont see why everyone was so freaked out.  I agree that SIMULATION was atleast semi psychotic, but my reaction to failure was " oh, well that sucks." not "agh my mind it esplodin!"

[chief1983]

You kind of have to let it freak you out, and really think about the implications.  Kind of like the "Blair Witch Project".

[Master_Drow]

Defiantly worth the time to play it. Very good story, could use a bit of a graphics enhancement. Still this is only a Beta version. This could a very amazing style very quickly. Would defiantly play more like this.

Kudos my good man.