[Spoon]

Nobody's mentioned that yet seriously but I'm probably the only person in HLP's history who's actually voluntarily given up the majority of the badges he ever had

I submit this evidence to the court, that you are not in fact the only one.

Like Spoon asked for his title to be removed. If people can ask to have a custom color code be added for their own use and that be granted, then should I not be able to give into Spoon's request? Or maybe I should be such the brilliant and funny administrator and give him the title "Stupid Newbie" that adorns so many Something Awful avatars?

Really, it could be anything.

I am glad of it.
My transformation into a SAW is almost complete

[General Battuta]

Please keep project badges, they're pretty and attractive, the Diaspora one is especially nice

I replayed FreeSpace 2 recently, it was really fun! I'm going to push another patch for FreeSpace Blue soon and then you guys can play an even better FreeSpace 2! I also bounced some emails off Jason Scott about the Granite Hunter files and he said he loved them. HLP dead? Battuta deny

[Black Wolf]

I'm 90% sure that most of the reason Spoon is annoyed at all this is because avatars are exclusive rewards for certain members right now and merely expanding the criteria for what constitutes an avatar reward is not a good solution for that annoyance.

Most of the reason Spoon is annoyed is because he is Spoon. Annoyed seems to be his baseline.

This is such an non-argument. We don't 'need' signatures, nor do we 'need' a personal text or titles or anything that adds a bit of personal flair. Or hell, do you need to color all your posts with your special [bw ] color tag? Seems oddly hypocritical? You get to have your special post flair but others cannot?

Nobody is now or has ever been* restricted from using colour tags. Go ahead. Try it. It's fine. Absolutely nobody will prevent you.

*Briefly, I think a few people were asking Mobius not to use light blue when we had a light blue and white scheme temporarily and it was all but impossible to see, but he was never forbidden.

If people can ask to have a custom color code be added for their own use and that be granted, then should I not be able to give into Spoon's request?

Custom colors: Black Wolf has his custom color tag because he asked for it.  Spoon, did you even bother asking for a custom color tag?  Or did you formulate an assumption and then start attacking that assumption?

That's not how I remember it. I asked for [colour=] tags way, way back in the day, and Setekh added them because that was how HLP worked then. I never asked for the [bw ] tags. That was something (again, IIRC, this was years ago) that Setekh added on his own bat for people that used colours, after I think we lost [colour] tags for some reason, maybe during an upgrade? There are also Maeg and Mobius tags, and likely others that I just don't remember. But I was always perfectly happy typing [color=burlywood ] or the [colour= ] equivalent.

Anyway, on the topic, people have been asking for avatars and image sigs since HLP started. We've never had them, and the clean, simple design we have now is the dividend of doing that. I find it highly unlikely that lack of user avatars or image sigs has ever dissuaded a single person from joining the forums, and equally unlikely that adding them will suddenly turn around the gradual decrease in activity that we're inevitably experiencing as a community based around a relatively poorly selling game from the better part of two decades ago.

[Spoon]

And being a jerk seems to be your baseline. 

Maybe you shouldn't get personal for no apparant reason? You always manage to interpret my posts in the worse possible manner, I love you for it. It makes you a really likable person.

Nobody is now or has ever been* restricted from using colour tags. Go ahead. Try it. It's fine. Absolutely nobody will prevent you.

I don't want to, I find your special snowflake color tag obnoxious. But that is completely besides the point on why I brought it up, a point you seem to have completely missed there, buddy.

I don't really think that avatar pics will be the amazing thing that will Make HLP Great Again.

This is a strawman though, nobody has made a claim like this.

[headdie]

tbh avatars are a minor annoyance for me as I feel I have to co and find a custom image so I can't care less if they are here or not.

as for custom titles, mine annoyed me for a few days but I came to chuckle at it from time to time now

[Phantom Hoover]

i like the way people are bringing up sigs as some proof of the hypocrisy of not letting everyone have some big garish avatar, when in the last site reformat we specifically made sigs smaller, less visible and in a roll down box

[karajorma]

*Briefly, I think a few people were asking Mobius not to use light blue when we had a light blue and white scheme temporarily and it was all but impossible to see, but he was never forbidden.

The issue with Mobius wasn't that he'd decided on one particular affectation such as posting in a different colour. The issue was that he was determined to affect every single trait he could possibly think of and eventually it got annoying to the point where everyone told him to stop.

I mention it because it kinda has relevance to this discussion.


As for avatars, I doubt that they're going to have an effect on membership either way. But that's not why I'm fine with having them turned on for everyone.

As an aside, no matter which way the discussion goes, I still haven't heard a single good argument for why we shouldn't let global moderators have admin powers (with the exception of Goober's "That's how we've always done it" which probably wasn't even about that issue) so unless I hear any objection I'll assume that everyone is okay with giving them avatars and turn that on regardless of where the rest of the discussion goes.

[Goober5000]

Here is the original entry in the HLP FAQ...

How can I get an avatar/custom title?
In the Forums, you’ll notice that particular people have special titles and even pictures underneath their names when they post. These pictures are called avatars, and are only given to staffers at websites hosted by HLP. To qualify as a hosted staffer, you must either work on a project already hosted by us, or create your own project and get it approved for hosting by us (more details on the HLP Hosting page). NB. Avatars can be accrued… ie. One person can have more than one avatar, if they work on the appropriate number of projects. Custom titles are earned by merit and distinction - that is (respectively), what you achieve, and what sets you apart from others. For example, Mikhael has the title *404error* because of his excellent work on 404error.com; Venom has the title Model Magician because of his outstanding skill in model creation; Zeronet has the title Hanger Man because of his mad interest in hangers ([sic] - I’m pretty sure it’s spelled hangars, but what the hey). You get the idea; titles are distributed at the discretion of the HLP staff only, and explicitly asking for titles will reduce your chance of ever being awarded one.

(Note that in this particular quote "avatars" refers to what became project badges.)

Custom titles have historically been awarded "for merit and distinction", with the ironic titles reserved for members who tried to jump the queue.  Over time, the ironic use of titles grew to overshadow the legitimate use.  I think a large part of the dissatisfaction with the title system could be resolved if the staff returned to being more proactive with recognizing merit and distinction.

Similarly, the powers-of-two text represents "member rank" based on the number of posts.  This has used a different distribution of ranks throughout HLP's history.  It's been powers-of-two for ages, but prior to that it was based on FreeSpace ships... "GTF Apollo" and "GTF Valkyrie" were for members with fewer posts; "GTD Orion and "GTVA Colossus" were for members with higher posts.  "GVA Setekh" was the highest rank due to Setekh having by far the largest number of posts on HLP for a number of years.  We could change this back to FreeSpace ships, or use the actual FreeSpace rank system, or something different.

As an aside, no matter which way the discussion goes, I still haven't heard a single good argument for why we shouldn't let global moderators have admin powers (with the exception of Goober's "That's how we've always done it" which probably wasn't even about that issue) so unless I hear any objection I'll assume that everyone is okay with giving them avatars and turn that on regardless of where the rest of the discussion goes.

How did you get from avatars and titles to "admin powers"?

Also, dismissing competing views and priorities as "not good arguments" is completely the wrong way to go about having a discussion.  You are not the unilateral arbiter of what is and is not good policy.

[Hades]

You are not the unilateral arbiter of what is and is not good policy.

Goober, so far your only argument basically boils down to "But it has been like this in the past" which in and of itself isn't a good argument. Tradition for the sake of tradition is stagnation.

[Goober5000]

Tradition is a good reason, and a big reason.  But it's far from the only reason, as I've stated previously in this thread.

Some additional quotes from various forum members:

You can't have avatars cause time and time again users have proved through abuse of signatures etc that you can't be trusted with them.

Reason why we don't have avatars on HLP:

See my Game Warden avatar.

HLP does not use avatars or image signatures to help users focus on post content.

[Luis Dias]

I don't really think that avatar pics will be the amazing thing that will Make HLP Great Again.

This is a strawman though, nobody has made a claim like this.

That's why I meant it in jest and followed it by an actual good reason that everyone ignored or thought insufficiently interesting to address (and that's fine tbh).

As far as I'm aware, "Why not X" has never been a good argument for anything. All that it succeeded in doing was BLOAT (tm) in about everything. And following all of you guys from a thread that was about how Star Citizen is all about the BLOAT, it's somewhat uninspiring to see everyone not taking the hint...

[FrikgFeek]

Adding avatars is obviously feature creep that will make HLP RUINED FOREVER.

[Luis Dias]

Nothing really is, that's why they call it "FEATURE CREEP". It slowly creeps on you.

[FrikgFeek]

It's a slippery slope, better be careful. Only a few months ago support was added for

Hidden Text: Show

hidden text

If avatars are added in now we'll go crazy with features until HLP is an unreadable bloated mess!

[Axem]

Here is my problem with this "Avatars will bloat HLP" argument. HLP already has avatars, its just that only some users can have them. If the concern really was reducing bloat and a minimalist design, then shouldn't admins not have them either? Shouldn't badges go away too then? All those distracting garish colors. The current design is stuck in the middle of a "streamlined no frills" and a "lots of graphics" sense. Is it really bloat to have a feature that can be turned off and that every other forum/message board has?

The reason we make fun of Star Citizen's bloat is the features they add are comically unnecessary and short sighted. Space combat, sure you need that. Trading? Uh ok, some space sims do that well enough, and I don't need to trade if I don't want to. Getting out of your fighter and walk around 100s of planets? Uh, lots of other space sims get along fine without that. Maybe if you finish the rest first?

If no one really really wants avatars, then I don't think admins should have them either. There's enough indications right below our names in posts that show that we have staff positions and authority.

[Luis Dias]

I'm actually all for getting rid of all graphical noise, if that's the option Axem. But I'm guessing it's really unpopular.

Your point is always fine. There are always good arguments to add "one more thing". It's just that exegetically, all those reasons fail against the bigger design scope.

All in all, including the "slippery slope" argument, I think I made my point so you guys know where one single poster stands. Do as you please.

[General Battuta]

Avatars should be earned by playing and posting feedback on mods.

[Spoon]

That's why I meant it in jest and followed it by an actual good reason that everyone ignored or thought insufficiently interesting to address (and that's fine tbh).

As far as I'm aware, "Why not X" has never been a good argument for anything. All that it succeeded in doing was BLOAT (tm) in about everything. And following all of you guys from a thread that was about how Star Citizen is all about the BLOAT, it's somewhat uninspiring to see everyone not taking the hint...

I sort of ignored it because bloat and feature creep, and the slippery slope has never been an issue on any forum with staff that has at least half a brain. So I wasn't actually sure if you were serious. I mean, 'bigger design scope' is something HLP doesn't exactly have anyway...
And especially because Axem and Karajorma already made a few posts that put attention to the potential clutter issue, in the case you were actually serious, I felt your point was already being adressed before you even made it.
Starcitizen's scope creep and HLP adding a new feature once every 5 years is not exactly a comparable situation. So uh yeah, sorry that I didn't caught your hint I guess?

It's a slippery slope, better be careful. Only a few months ago support was added for

Hidden Text: Show

hidden text

If avatars are added in now we'll go crazy with features until HLP is an unreadable bloated mess!

Hidden Text: Show

We must remain ever vigilant and base forum policies on 7 year old posts, so we don't fall in this trap of feature creep! Beware! Guard the traditions for the sake of tradition! Never add anything new! We must remain in the glory days of 2006! Do not adopt things that 99% of the rest of the internet has!

[Goober5000]

Spoon, you're capable of discussing the issues without snark or condescension.  Do so.

[FrikgFeek]

Oh yes, of course. Being civil is so much more important than having arguments that actually hold up. Don't want to scare off those "hidden third parties" with our rudeness.
Making up ridiculous claims and slippery slope arguments is fine as long as you're being civil about it