Author Topic: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?  (Read 29123 times)

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Offline The E

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
Umm. Maybe I'm missing something here, but what's wrong with using the released TBP as a base to start developing from?

And no, according to what was said in the 3.4b release, none of the assets developed for TBP may be used outside of TBP.

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Limit users? Possibly

No, definitely. By making it a mod for FS2, you are requiring people to buy FS2 before they can use it; TBP as released now is completely standalone.

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making ppl wait years again for a completed stand alone version

You're misunderstanding the problem. There is no new version that has to built from the ground up, it's just the old version that could use some more polish.

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I don't think the same closed way of 'when its done' and 'get what you are given' will be tolerated anymore, development needs to be more open.

In an ideal world, that would be true.

In this one, however, "completely open" development isn't a good idea, as nothing will get done ever due to everyone and their dog pitching opinions all the time.

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I was thinking it might be a good idea to start with a fs2 mod in order to sort out what is needed, what works, what doesn't, the fastest way possible without using the old TBP and having the possibilty of the 'rug pulled from under us' so to speak. Once enough is done then a standalone new TBP (which I prefer) could be developed anyway.

There are a LOT of people around who know what is needed to build a standalone game. There is no need for such a discovery period.

And above all, there already exists a standalone game that is 90% there already. It just needs some love and care applied to its models and effects.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
Limit users? Possibly but making ppl wait years again for a completed stand alone version is going to limit public intrest and limit the number of users that will stick around and eventually develop for it too. I don't think the same closed way of 'when its done' and 'get what you are given' will be tolerated anymore, development needs to be more open.

I was thinking it might be a good idea to start with a fs2 mod in order to sort out what is needed, what works, what doesn't, the fastest way possible without using the old TBP and having the possibilty of the 'rug pulled from under us' so to speak. Once enough is done then a standalone new TBP (which I prefer) could be developed anyway.

Personally I don't see what the problem is, either we can use the TBP assets or we can't. If not then let TBP die and start a new project with less restrictions and more open development. If we can use them, then lets get on with it.  :nod:


Sorry but even making it a Wing Commander Saga (or BtRL) mod would be less dumb than making it an FS2 mod. And that's still pretty dumb.

As someone who is the team lead in a stand alone FS2_Open game, I'm going to tell you flat out that trying to rebuild TBP is just flat out impossible, there isn't the interest in the project for it to ever happen. Even when there is interest (like with the BSG or Wing Commander TCs) we're talking about a ridiculously long dev time before you have anything worthy. And sad though it may be, there just isn't the interest in TBP to make it.

Either improve TBP via Zathras or as new release, but trying to remake a project that took several years when there was interest in it, would just be a huge waste of everyone's time. Especially as in the end, we'd only be doing it in order to get around one person having an issue that as I've said above is already pretty much moot anyway.
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Offline headdie

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
does anyone know what IPAndrew's contribution was?
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Offline karajorma

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
It was pretty substantial. The problem is that by the end he was fixing up large amounts of the TBP assets. We're not talking about someone whose contribution can be easily removed.

But like I keep saying, this all hinges on whether there is anyone developing for TBP now, and whether there are missions that don't work on Zathras.
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Offline headdie

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
If it was something easily nailed down then that would be a starting point but as he was randomly fixing bits all over then like you say you are looking at starting from scratch.
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Offline Mungrel

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
There is no new version that has to built from the ground up, it's just the old version that could use some more polish.

Needs more than a polish imo.

By making it a mod for FS2, you are requiring people to buy FS2 before they can use it

Won't hurt, its worth owning anyway.

Even when there is interest (like with the BSG or Wing Commander TCs) we're talking about a ridiculously long dev time before you have anything worthy.

Depends on how 'worthy' you think it needs to be.  Just the basics and the rest can be added over time. It could be as much about developing the game, not just about using the final release.

Either improve TBP via Zathras or as new release

Or forget it all together.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
You said he fixed the models. But those things are easily the most obsolete thing in TBP. What if we used TBP tables, sounds (including music, all this sounds like it's directly from the show) and interface, but remade all the models and weapon bitmaps.

The latter is what this thread started as, and the former would take a lot of time, but there's already plenty of new models IPA most likely didn't even see (if if he did, it was in War Without End). In fact, thanks to Emi_100 and WWE (hehe :)), remaking models could go surprisingly fast.

Interface could also use a small facelift, but that's relatively minor (unless IPA worked on it, but even then, it's not too difficult, if time consuming, to make a new interface using templates).

Tables might be a problem, since they're so easy to edit that every team member most likely made a change to them at some point, and they're quite well done, though they need some tweaks. Though compared to the rest of things that would need doing, re-writing them from scratch (perhaps with a new flight model, truer to the show) would not be a huge task.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
Who said that's all he fixed?

The point is that no one but IPA knows what IPA fixed. So unless you want to throw out the entire mod and start again either you drop any attempt to to pacify him or you run the risk of releasing and him coming back and saying "I changed that 1 file. You need to pull the entire thing"



Seriously though, this topic is rapidly straying into the land of the ludicrous. 
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Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
Umm. Maybe I'm missing something here, but what's wrong with using the released TBP as a base to start developing from?

You are missing that though less buggy and unhandy than 3.3 (oh god that was bad) TBP 3.4b without Zathras still crashes every debug build you throw it at... You wanted to know why something was broken? Well good luck! Maybe you got to see the relevant bug report before the debug build just gave up

That's part of the reason that lead to the inception of Zathras...

One option would be to finally include the latest engine builds, Zathras version and all working campaigns available in a huge TBP 3.5 release. If this is not possible because of the history of the mod, please find a way to include some engine builds and OAL and everything needed into the next Zathras release. Right now it's much too much fiddling to get it the mod up-to-date and you won't win new users this way.

It is possible IMO to jam it all into a new installer and download ... that's what the "DVD project"in '08 was for - Version 1.0 is still stickied

If you have a skills creating a new bundle from 3.4b and all the mods you can gather is no problem ... however no one has been around with the skill and comittment to do for a while

If there is too much time between TBP or Zathras releases people will move on...

To my shame, that's because Zathras is the project with which we left FUBAR pretty much alone - Zathras 1.0 gathered up all the bits and pieces team members had created for their own purposes but after that it was almost all FUBAR alone
One person can do only so much...

Needs more than a polish imo.

Then cut the one liners and spill it out, man!
If you haven't noticed: no one is stopping you from from coming on this side and get your hands dirty with simple contributions - you can do pretty much everything you like with TBP 3.4b but take its assets and release them as a new mod ...

Just the basics and the rest can be added over time. It could be as much about developing the game, not just about using the final release.

That's basically the course that TBP has been running since I've this badge - look where it go us... Don't like it? Too bad 'cause this is where we are...

______________________________________________________________

Now I will take some time to chill out...

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EDIT: sry I got all that worked up .... but the reason this gets my blood boiling is that I really want to work on a TBP campaign again...

and let's face it with all it's problems that's what TBP really needs, not new models, no new textures or effects not even those sweet new graphics rendering option a modern FS_Open build could provide...

just imagine Spoon or Darius has released just the models and tables for their mods and nothing else... would we be talking about Blue Planet or Wings Of Dawn if they had? We certainly wouldn't...

Back when I got the badge we had the EACW script and the hope that one day we would have all the stuff and people to get it working - never happened
Without it TBP is and will be an empty shell because that is what it was created for ... In the end Skullar set out to work on it years ago but there hasn't been a word from his for a long time...

I really would want to work on TBP campaign again ... just so TBP wouldn't be just a bad of full of tools with no purpose ...
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 12:58:01 pm by 0rph3u5 »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
I know what you mean 0rph3u5 but at the moment there isn't the interest in making that campaign. It's one reason why I feel a new release, even one with just a few new missions to justify it, would be good for TBP.
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Offline Trivial Psychic

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
How about that mini-campaign I wrote some time ago for the FRED Academy?  I intended it to be part of a much larger campaign which I called "A Future Born In Pain".  The player takes on the role of a Narn pilot, beginning late in 2258, goes through the war with the Centauri, possibly helps protect B5 during 2260 and ultimately fights in the Shadow war.  We've never seen much of what the Narn did after their liberation at the end of the Shadow war, so there could be some stories there as well.

For the main campaign I wrote the story up until a point early in the Narn-Centauri war, basically the turning point where it begins to become a losing war for them.  Anyway, the mini-campaign which would have been a part of it, was to have begun just after the events of the Season 2 finale "The Fall of Night", and was 9 missions long.
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Offline Mungrel

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
If you haven't noticed: no one is stopping you from from coming on this side and get your hands dirty with simple contributions

this is:

or you run the risk of releasing and him coming back and saying "I changed that 1 file. You need to pull the entire thing"

not new models, no new textures or effects not even those sweet new graphics rendering option a modern FS_Open build could provide...

Disagree, new textures, effects, gameplay are needed.

No change here by the looks of it...   :(

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
Not of the type you're asking for, no.

Those of us a little more grounded in realism think we can make changes though. :p
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Offline headdie

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
Not of the type you're asking for, no.

Those of us a little more grounded in realism think we can make changes though. :p

basically make a release that is comparatively small in effort taken such as make it 3.6.14 compatible to drum up fresh support and enthusiasm, then use that to create new missions and campaigns and perhaps, just perhaps if there is enough new blood and enthusiasm do more ambitious things.
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Offline wesp5

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
Disagree, new textures, effects, gameplay are needed.

In my opinion TBP is already a great mod, one of the most ambitious I ever played and one of the most amazing too! There are some minor things that should be fixed to make it closer to the show, like the jump points, but I agree with 0rph3u5, that the campaigns are the meat and bones of the project! On that regard I would suggest to finish the Earth Minbari war mini campaign and then do a re-release with that as reason and the latest Zathras and builds and OAL together in one archive. It hasn't to include all the stuff like the DVD version did if that can't be done, but it should include everything else to work out of the box. BTW, 0rph3u5 wrote that there is no knowledge anymore how to do a DVD release. Isn't this just about wrapping it all up in one big installer? I did something like this with the Bloodlines UP, should I take a look at it if I find the time?

 

Offline Mungrel

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
Those of us a little more grounded in realism think we can make changes though.

'Grounded' isn't the word I would use Lol!  Amazing to see how the attitudes have stayed the same though, no wonder the project went no where.

Have fun guys.

 

Offline headdie

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
Those of us a little more grounded in realism think we can make changes though.

'Grounded' isn't the word I would use Lol!  Amazing to see how the attitudes have stayed the same though, no wonder the project went no where.

Have fun guys.

given that Kara is also part of a massive project that just released, perhaps not the best thought out comment?
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Offline The E

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
Those of us a little more grounded in realism think we can make changes though.

'Grounded' isn't the word I would use Lol!  Amazing to see how the attitudes have stayed the same though, no wonder the project went no where.

Have fun guys.

Unlike you, we know what is involved in producing a high-quality total conversion from scratch. Diaspora, which had a dedicated team working on it, took 4 years from start to finish; a project like TBP, which in terms of models alone is many times the size of Diaspora, will take a LOT longer. It is thus a better idea to iterate on the basis of the released TBP.
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Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
BTW, 0rph3u5 wrote that there is no knowledge anymore how to do a DVD release. Isn't this just about wrapping it all up in one big installer? I did something like this with the Bloodlines UP, should I take a look at it if I find the time?

Your help would be greatly appricated... Best you take it the PubDev sub-forum where you can give us an impression of what you would do... (not to clutter this topic anymore)
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Offline Vidmaster

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Re: If TBP could have new effects, what would you want to see?
I was *this* close to closing it.
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