[An4ximandros]

I just had a random though: What if what Noemi and Sam hear during that part of UT is different because they are hearing conversations from different realities?

Ex: Uni-A has the WIH one; Uni-B has the AoA one.

[Damage]

That's a can of worms.  If the Shivans and Vishnans are truly multiversal beings then this could indicate the first signs of a schism between factions within their respective hierarchies.

[Scotty]

...Yeah, I don't think so.  The narrative that the Vishnans have given up on their human experiment is significantly cheapened by the idea that only *some* of this unified hierarchy of multi-dimentional manipulators of space is in on the memo to not help humans.

[0rph3u5]

Or that they recieved different messages is a indicator that the communication between Humans and Shivans and/or Vishnans is not as clear as either thinks it is - that the aliens messages within the heads of the protagonists are interpreted differently because they are not explict enought to stand without interpretation

Sam and Neomi making something different out of the same message might also be a statement on how different the two of them are and how different their relationship with the "outside forces" is, in spite of some similarities (LaPorte's "guidance" by Ken is in part more explict and of a very different qualitiy than Sam's guidance by the Vishnans)

[qwadtep]

Nagari has to be translated by the receiver's psyche. Sam is high on Vishnans, so his brain interprets things in a way that favors the Vishnans. Laporte is much more neutral and gets an unbiased look at the encounter.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Laporte is much more neutral and gets an unbiased look at the encounter.

I'm not sure "neutral" is even close to an accurate description of Noemi.

[0rph3u5]

Laporte is much more neutral and gets an unbiased look at the encounter.

She is far from being unbiased ... even if you discount Ken as a figment of her deranged imagination (and not as an acutal person manipulating her from childhood onwards), you have to appriciate the impact the GTVA invasion of Sol had on her psyche and state of mind; to condem the Vishnans for interfereing with the UEF leaders but in a manner that impedes the war effort from her point of view, has a certain kind of logic

[Scotty]

Nothing is true.

[Nyarly]

Everything is permitted.

[Thisisaverylongusername]

One Future.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Her Finest Hour.

[An4ximandros]

Well I wouldn't say Lappy is unbiased, more like high on Shivs...

Also, C-c-c-c-c-combo breaker!

[leoben]

I guess she's high on a fusion of Shivan+Bosch? Sam believes that the Vishnans are judging humanity and that humanity is failing that test. Ken says the exact same thing, so far so good.

But I still don't understand something. AoA ends with a massive showdown between the Vs and Ss. The Shivans want to eradicate humanity, as they're not worthy. Vs say no, we want them to succeed. But 18 months later, they suddenly change their mind? Like they were surprised that Bei didn't manage to persuade the GTVA to adopt the buntu way? How did that celestial conversation go?

- Yo Shiva
- don't talk to me *****, you pissed me off
- yo dawg, don't be like that man, I think you're right culling them sons o' *****es.
- Aha rly?
- ye, I want you to go in there and tear'm a new one.

At which point the Bosch entity came in and said:

- yo shiva, don't do dat.
- not fckin around anymore Kenny, humanity is goin' DOWN
- nonono wait, got a business proposition for ya
- I'm listening...

and then what?

Regardless of the stupid way i portrayed whatever happened between the Vs and Ss (sorry for that), I'd like to think that the writers are giving these almost omnipotent entities a bit more credit.

What if...the reason for no contact between humanity and the Vs is because Ken found a way to isolate them. 'destroy the GTVA'. He didn't say defeat. He said destroy. That sounds an awful lot like the old Bosch, not like a savior of mankind. Whichever way I look at it, destroying the GTVA is not saving mankind. I think Ken is trying to gear up Noemi to fight an enemy to the bitter end that shouldn't be fought. Or at least, for the wrong reasons.

If that's true, what's his endgame?

It comes down to: how much of what we've seen in UT is manipulated vs actual reality and truth. To what end is Noemi being manipulated? Believing that only Bei is manipulated here and not Noemi is being childishly naive.

Thoughts?

[-Norbert-]

Well.... destroying the GTVA might very well be for the good of mankind in his eyes.

If he believes that the GTVA is corrupted beyond redemption, he might be willing to sacrifice them to save the rest of mankind.

But since he told Neomi to choose one side and destroy the other, I don't think he really wanted her to destroy the GTVA specifically. Unless that seeming choice was really a test to see if she would make a choice that would save mankind, or one that would destroy it.

The problem is knowing which one will save and which one will destroy mankind.


Or could it even be a double bind? Could the ancients through Ken make it appear as if one side had to be destroyed for some of mankind to survive, but it's all just a ruse, another test? Could the truth be that if one side - no matter which one - is defeated, we have proofen ourselfs beyond redemption and will be wiped out and the only way to avoid extinction is once again finding a way to coexist, just like back in the great war?

[AdmiralRalwood]

Could the ancients through Ken

When did the Ancients come into this?