Author Topic: Saga-Modding  (Read 17155 times)

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Offline Dragon

  • Citation needed
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  • The sky is the limit.
There's a new AIP flag, some critical bugfixes and lighting improvements.
Another important part would be allowing more than 4 secondary banks (WCS supports up to 6) and adding any new SEXPs WCS has. There are also new HUD features, though I'm not sure if they couldn't be done using Swifty's HUD code in the main branch.

 
If there are any extremely important features, will they break compatibility with the retail game and violate one of the cardinal rules of the SCP?
There's always a way to implement features without breaking SCP rule #1. This is why we have tables and command-line flags to turn stuff on and off.

It is not, however, always easy or practical to do so.
That's mainly what I'm worried about.  A WCS hardcoded feature may be so tangled-up into the engine it isn't worth coder time to disentangle and make into a feature toggled or modified via table or flag.
There's a new AIP flag, some critical bugfixes and lighting improvements.
Another important part would be allowing more than 4 secondary banks (WCS supports up to 6) and adding any new SEXPs WCS has. There are also new HUD features, though I'm not sure if they couldn't be done using Swifty's HUD code in the main branch.
I'm reasonably sure that any critical bugs in FSO existing at the time of the fork have since been fixed in the two years since then.  A single AIP flag isn't that much, and Valathil has done so much more for lighting (like actual shadows in FSO) than the WCS team has.

Of course, any new features that are worth SCP coder time will never get ported to FSO until WCS releases their code and does a full diff, so instead of saying how awesome their code is, get them to release it so the SCP can look at it.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Dragon

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  • The sky is the limit.
I've been requesting it for quite some time now. I'm not talking about how awesome their code is, they've got some decent ideas, but I'm mostly interested in being able to adopt WCS to run on regular builds. I've tried working on a WCS mod, but I ran into a ton of limitations regular builds don't have anymore.

 

Offline karajorma

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    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
One piece of code I'd be interested in looking at is how they've managed to get the pilot files to work from Documents\Volition\Wing Commander Saga. Not that I'd want to have it save there, Saved Games\FSO\Diaspora is the setting I'm after. :p
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 
I've been requesting it for quite some time now. I'm not talking about how awesome their code is, they've got some decent ideas, but I'm mostly interested in being able to adopt WCS to run on regular builds. I've tried working on a WCS mod, but I ran into a ton of limitations regular builds don't have anymore.
Well then, try working with MatthTheGeek on his project to port WCS over to FSO.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
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    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
That was little more than a hack. The WCS source code would allow us to do it without the need for such hacks.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 
But until they do release their source and a diff, hacks are all we can do.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Aginor

  • Spelljammer
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IIRC one of the reasons for forking was that WCS needed some features that just broke the game because they weren't compatible with things WCS didn't need, and needed some fixes for things that weren't planned for the main branch any time soon. But WCS needed them NOW (then).
Also there wasn't time to check the whole game for compatibility every time a new build was released. So it was decided to use something that just worked with some changes and run with it.
Saga is one piece you can install and it runs. Feature creep kills projects. Especially big ones, we have all seen that happen numerous times.

Edit: besides I think you can't expect the SCP to implement features all the time which only your mod uses.

and yes, of course I would like to have some of the newer things in my campaign that the main branch has. But I'm not sure if it is worth all the grey hair I'd get trying to make things compatible and most Saga players outside of HLP (which is most of them) wouldn't even be able to play it, which would make a Saga mod pretty pointless.
Also keep in mind that most people out there don't want to play around with SCP builds and patches and stuff. They just want to play the game. A standalone build was the logical decision IMO. I remember how I hated it when I played TBP and there were lots of errors with my build and I had to read pages and pages of text here and somehow fiddle around with the game to get it to work. I am glad I did it because TBP is great, but I totally understand people who just don't want to do that.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 02:07:34 pm by Aginor »
Member of the Scooby Doo model Fanclub "verticies and splines are the medium and he is the artist."

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Edit: besides I think you can't expect the SCP to implement features all the time which only your mod uses.
Diaspora says hi. Just to pick one example among many.

EDIT: the thing is, anyway, that by definition, if SCP codes a feature for you, it's not JUST for you, it's for everyone else that might want to use it as well. It's never "hey, code this for me", but "hey, here's a cool feature that I really could use".
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 02:51:51 pm by MatthTheGeek »
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline karajorma

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    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
IIRC one of the reasons for forking was that WCS needed some features that just broke the game because they weren't compatible with things WCS didn't need, and needed some fixes for things that weren't planned for the main branch any time soon. But WCS needed them NOW (then).
Also there wasn't time to check the whole game for compatibility every time a new build was released. So it was decided to use something that just worked with some changes and run with it.
Saga is one piece you can install and it runs. Feature creep kills projects. Especially big ones, we have all seen that happen numerous times.

Edit: besides I think you can't expect the SCP to implement features all the time which only your mod uses.

I don't think the SCP ever has implemented changes which only one mod could use. The trick is to implement them in such a way that any mod can use them if they want to. The old way of implementing changes using the TBP or WCS flags were actually quite bad in that they kept useful changes from other mods who wanted them but not the raft of other changes that were set by the flag.

Quote
and yes, of course I would like to have some of the newer things in my campaign that the main branch has. But I'm not sure if it is worth all the grey hair I'd get trying to make things compatible and most Saga players outside of HLP (which is most of them) wouldn't even be able to play it, which would make a Saga mod pretty pointless.
Also keep in mind that most people out there don't want to play around with SCP builds and patches and stuff. They just want to play the game. A standalone build was the logical decision IMO. I remember how I hated it when I played TBP and there were lots of errors with my build and I had to read pages and pages of text here and somehow fiddle around with the game to get it to work. I am glad I did it because TBP is great, but I totally understand people who just don't want to do that.

What is necessary is a much better installer/launcher to run the mod with. And the SCP is working hard on that with wxLauncher. Get that working nicely enough and upgrading builds would be pretty easy.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Aginor

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I'm looking forward to that!
When that finally happens I will even search for my old FS2 discs and install it again (or buy it somewhere if I can't find them) and play some campaigns. Maybe I'll even finish the retail campaign...
Member of the Scooby Doo model Fanclub "verticies and splines are the medium and he is the artist."

 
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Aginor

  • Spelljammer
  • 210
I think it is only possible to pay there via credit card or paypal and I don't have either. But as soon as I have one I think I will buy WC1-4, Privateer, and FS1+2.
Won't be in the next months though, I have a full schedule at the moment with my mod and stuff.
Member of the Scooby Doo model Fanclub "verticies and splines are the medium and he is the artist."

 

Offline Dragon

  • Citation needed
  • 212
  • The sky is the limit.
http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/freespace_2
Can't go wrong for $5.99.
In civilized world, yes. If you happen to live in Eastern Europe, sucks to be you (speaking from experience :)).

 

Offline Aginor

  • Spelljammer
  • 210
Another small update on my Kilrathi mod and Campaign, for those of you who are interested in WC but don't read in WC forums:

Campaign:
- Missions 1 to 7 are done, except voice acting and testing. They also lack real briefings because I don't know to do them yet. I explain everything in command briefings at the moment
- Mission 8 is almost done, just missing messages and all that which is also missing in M1-7
- Mission 9 and 10: Not started yet, but the plan is complete.
- Story... well, I'm a bit stuck. I'm working on it.

Mod:
- Strakha is now ok to fly, including cloaking for wingmen as ordered by the player (there are still some minor issues with the Strakha but I can live with those for now since it would take too much of my time to fix them and I want to finish the things needed for the campaign first)
- Kofar-class support ship is ingame. I scripted the docking for refueling/rearming since I am either too dumb to add a support ship that actually does something or refueling/rearming is broken in the Saga build (the first possibility being the more likely one I guess)
It just works once per mission now, but I will try to fix that.
- I fixed the Bloodfang, so now it has a normal map, a working docking point and I also corrected the engines.
- I changed a few things on some Kilrathi ships to make them more suitable as player ships. In most cases that meant that I changed the number of decoys a bit.
I also added Glide to the Darket so it is more fun to fly.
I nerfed the Gothri a bit. It is a torpedo bomber, with a rear turret, good armor and good shields. It is also quite fast (as fast as a medium fighter). So I made it a bit less agile, otherwise it would make no sense at all to fly a Dralthi. Now it feels more like a fast bomber. It is still nimble for a bomber but not more than a medium fighter.
- I created two events that allow ships to lay mines (or turret mines if they are capships). First I had some problems because I couldn't despawn the turret mines again, I couldn't reference them in events because of their random names. But then I figured out how to change that so they now have previously defined names.
- Main hall is still missing, but I found someone who wants to do it and already did a concept. The plan is to have a rendered, animated main hall like Saga, but if it isn't finished for release it is not the end of the world. I will build a simple main hall to use in the first release if necessary.

And here are some questions to you:
- Is there a possibility to concatenate Strings in SEXPs? I solved my naming problem with ship-create using a different approach, but I wonder whether it would be possible to spawn a ship named "Zulu" + "<variable>" or to change the cargo of a ship depending on the time that has passed from "20 lifeforms" to "17 lifeforms", with one life form dying every 30 seconds or something.
- How can I use variables in debriefings (for example when I want my CO to say "You killed <variable> enemies more than your wingman! You are the greatest")?
- How do I disable a subsystem without destroying it? For example if I want to have a ship that has a turret (and the player can destroy it) but it doesn't use it until a certain point in the mission. Same goes for engines. When I have a ship that docks somewhere I want to disable the engine glow. But I don't know how.
Member of the Scooby Doo model Fanclub "verticies and splines are the medium and he is the artist."

 
For using a variable in debriefing take your example you use "You killed $Variable name enemies. For the turret use turret lock but the engine glows theres a new SEXp in new builds but didn't make it into saga so that's no possible.
May the Force be with you

 

Offline Aginor

  • Spelljammer
  • 210
Thanks!
The engine thing is not that important. Perhaps I'll just kill the engines, and with a bit of luck nobody will notice they are destroyed unless he flies really close. Or I just keep them running.
But wait... doesn't "ai-play dead" also deactivate the engines completely? I'm not sure. Have to check that again.
Member of the Scooby Doo model Fanclub "verticies and splines are the medium and he is the artist."

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
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  • Frenchie McFrenchface
I doubt any AI orders has any effect on subsystems and stuff.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Aginor

  • Spelljammer
  • 210
I think you're right, but I can't rule out the possibility that it was changed for the Saga build, so I'll check it anyway, just to be sure.
Member of the Scooby Doo model Fanclub "verticies and splines are the medium and he is the artist."

 

Offline Aginor

  • Spelljammer
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Next question!

I've started to work on briefings to decide whether I should do them or just use text as I do at the moment.
I created a Darket, made a Briefing Icon out of it and then did a simple briefing where a Darket moves around to test how it works. Ok so far.
Then I wanted to create a Ralaxath icon and did the same. But it didn't work. I just got a text but no icon.

So the question is: Do I have to create briefing Icons for all the ships manually or is there an automatic way of doing that? And where are those icons assigned to the model?

Or am I just doing something wrong again? Any help would be appreciated.

EDIT:
Nevermind, found it. It is the icons.tbl, which isn't filled very good since for Saga it wasn't needed (the briefings are ctscenes as you know).
So now I will do the following: I will make briefings icons for all the ships. I think I will use the target shield anis for it, just without the shield bars. That way I won't have the grid models the way WC fans are used to, but it will be less work.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 08:13:45 am by Aginor »
Member of the Scooby Doo model Fanclub "verticies and splines are the medium and he is the artist."