[Droid803]

We need an actual Ancient fleet... Raven2k+1 or VA or maybe Galemp could do it (though none of them have time... Typical, isn't it, that the best modders don't have enough time to do anything).

It's always like that.
The n00bs have too much time on their hands, as soon as they get some skill, they either get busy, or just dissappear... 

[ShadowGorrath]

The Nightmare ships look Shivan-y. I can make it all work out if I just called them as "designed after the Shivan ships" 

If seriously though, I can really either call them as designed after shivan ships, or have some non-canon Vasudan models turned into Ancient ships. Oh, and I only need another destroyer and more fighters.

[Snail]

The Nightmare ships look Shivan-y. I can make it all work out if I just called them as "designed after the Shivan ships" 

That would completely defeat the purpose of the Terran-Vasudan War IMO. The point was that during the war the Terrans and Vasudans learned how to adapt, and hence defeated the Shivans. The Ancients were unable to do this and so got wiped out. They could be part of the end-resistance last-ditch effort attempt to blow up the Shivan shielded capital ship, but I don't think they should be in the main part of the campaign.

If seriously though, I can really either call them as designed after shivan ships, or have some non-canon Vasudan models turned into Ancient ships. Oh, and I only need another destroyer and more fighters.

I'd go for this option.

[Mobius]

By saying that you give for sure that the Ancients created new designs based on Shivan ones. Snail has a very good point. Maybe the Ancients were stubborn and underestimated the advantage of having shields until it was too late.

I apparently have nothing to say against it but please put attention on your plot related choices. People might not like them and/or they might not be acceptable.

[ShadowGorrath]

The story/universe is still being developed. I'll try to go as canon as possible, and use both original and most commonly accepted theories of the Ancients. So don't worry about that. But the problem is- I can't do much without a PROPER Ancient fleet. Currently it's: 1 puny fighter, 3 ridiculous bombers, and capital ships from tiny to too-big.

[Snail]

The story/universe is still being developed. I'll try to go as canon as possible, and use both original and most commonly accepted theories of the Ancients. So don't worry about that. But the problem is- I can't do much without a PROPER Ancient fleet. Currently it's: 1 puny fighter, 3 ridiculous bombers, and capital ships from tiny to too-big.

IMO we should put it on hiatus. We need a much larger team for something like this... We could even include a war against a lesser species before the arrival of the Shivans. There could be exploration into the Ancient-Vasudan relation.

[Mobius]

The "commonly accepted" theories about the Ancients just tend to limit their capabilities in an incredible way. People simply don't think about the size of the Ancient Empire compared to GTVA controlled space and the consequent dimensions of the Ancient fleet.

EDIT:

Form a team and ask for hosting. I don't see why something like this project shouldn't be as interesting as TVWP. Oh, just make sure that the first campaign has less than 20 missions

[Snail]

The "commonly accepted" theories about the Ancients just tend to limit their capabilities in an incredible way. People simply don't think about the size of the Ancient Empire compared to GTVA controlled space and the consequent dimensions of the Ancient fleet.

I love this discussion.

It was said after the release of FreeSpace 2 that the Ancients were only a small way ahead of the GTA and PVN when the Shivans came. You cannot say they had lots of superjugs, because it directly contradicts canon.

The thing is, we're underestimating the power of the GTA and PVN. I mean they have ships who can survive mutli-kiloton nukes without wavering. The Ancients could be similar.

[Jeff Vader]

I tend to think that the war between the Terrans and Vasudans must have limited the expansion a bit, if not even a lot. Not to mention that neither of them seem to be as keen on expansion as the Ancients were. And there aren't that many references to the strength of the races the Ancients defeated. Maybe they were all somewhere in the industrial revolution. Or Renaissance. Not much of a challenge to a (sub)spacefaring race.

[Snail]

I tend to think that the war between the Terrans and Vasudans must have limited the expansion a bit, if not even a lot. Not to mention that neither of them seem to be as keen on expansion as the Ancients were.

Agreed.

And there aren't that many references to the strength of the races the Ancients defeated. Maybe they were all somewhere in the industrial revolution. Or Renaissance. Not much of a challenge to a (sub)spacefaring race.

One of my main points that I brought up the last time I had this discussion with Mobius. It is obvious the Ancients weren't locked in a large war, since we hear in one of the monologues: "And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace our empire would surely know no boundaries."

I believe we can safely say they weren't anywhere near as advanced as the Ancients.

[Mobius]

It was said after the release of FreeSpace 2 that the Ancients were only a small way ahead of the GTA and PVN when the Shivans came. You cannot say they had lots of superjugs, because it directly contradicts canon.

The thing is, we're underestimating the power of the GTA and PVN. I mean they have ships who can survive mutli-kiloton nukes without wavering. The Ancients could be similar.

Power? I thought it was technological level. And it can't really prevent a civilization from constructing something build, especially a very old one. Terrans in FS1 did have the capacity of building superdestroyer sized ships and maybe something bigger. Put together a fraction of all Terran destroyers and you have a juggernaut. Try to imagine an immense empire and you have MANY juggernaut. Think about the fact that the Ancients could even go further and you have one or more superjuggernauts(maybe not Inferno-like...something Nukemod-like).

You need to think about three simple things:

1) Time. The Ancients had been colonizing for many THOUSAND years while Terrans and Vasudans had only a few centuries. Look at what the Ts and Vs came up with in a few years - the Colossus - and think about the Ancients.

2) Empire. The Empire was immense, who knows how many times larger than GTVA space. No doubt a very important shipbuilding facility could get materials from basically everywere. In addition, the Ancients must have had a strong and impressive economy.

3) Pride&Assimilation. The Ancients were aggressive and the canon source above states that they SUBDUED civilizations and therefore had the possibility to learn a lot and benefit from the exploitation of entire races. Their pride could have brought them to the point of constructing something REALLY big, maybe for the sole purpose of showing pride.

As for the civilizations they faced, the Ancient speaker refers to wars that took a while to arrive to an end(months). Do you really think that primitive civilizations could have resisted so long against such an immense and powerful empire? Look at FS1 and the technological gap between Terrans/Vasudans and Shivans. What was a small Shivan task force able to do against two species? We all know the answer... try to imagine massive Ancient fleets attacking a newly discovered civilization and finding resistance. No, forget that "I believe we can safely say they weren't anywhere near as advanced as the Ancients" because it isn't valid at all.

[blowfish]

1) Time. The Ancients had been colonizing for many THOUSAND years while Terrans and Vasudans had only a few centuries. Look at what the Ts and Vs came up with in a few years - the Colossus - and think about the Ancients.

Where do you get that the Ancients had been colonizing for thousands of years?

I really think that their superior knowledge of subspace, and the fact that they weren't involved in any major wars (as Lobo said) is what allowed the Ancients' empire to grow so big.  We don't know how quickly it grew, however.  The fact that CANON states that the Ancients weren't too far ahead of us technology indicates that they haven't been in space for too much longer than us.

[terran_emperor]

Quoted from Ancients 1 Cutscene: For Thousands of years our Empire expanded
But my objection to Mobius' use of that is that they never said they were colonizing other systems for thousands of years.
That statment could very well be saying that some national empire on the Ancient's Homworld, like the Ancient Egyptians, expanded taking over their entire planet then eventually colonized their entire star system. I really dont think we'd be quite as far Mobius Says if the Ancient Egyptian empire still existed.

For so long, never did we encounter advanced life
Hey mankind has been expanding for over 10,000 years and we've yet to [officially] encounter aliens
In fact the ancients didnt start conquering other races till after they discovered subspace

My opinion of the Shivan ancient war is that it was a cross between the Earth-Minbari war and Various Shadow battles (Shadows vs narms, Shadows vs LONAW) from babylon 5.

Basically, the Ancients got r***ed.
No weapons capable of penetrating shields...so for the Ancients, nothing short of ramming them could stop shivan fighters and bombers.
No shields and Shivans undetectable

[ShadowGorrath]

I'll ask for hosting when I have something worth releasing ( a mod pack, or some beta/demo/thing ).

As for the discussion- keep on going. It helps me get certain ideas "normalised". Just don't get too far off topic, or to a flame-war, please.

[Snail]

Power? I thought it was technological level. And it can't really prevent a civilization from constructing something build, especially a very old one. Terrans in FS1 did have the capacity of building superdestroyer sized ships and maybe something bigger. Put together a fraction of all Terran destroyers and you have a juggernaut. Try to imagine an immense empire and you have MANY juggernaut. Think about the fact that the Ancients could even go further and you have one or more superjuggernauts(maybe not Inferno-like...something Nukemod-like).

Yes, it was technological level. But what you're saying is if you have enough time and patience, we could build something big, really big, just like that, even if we didn't have a lot of technology. This is untrue. How would you get enough energy to power a superjuggernaut, or enough weaponry to arm it. And even if you did, it would probably be an unfeasible warship. You can't build something so big with basic technology and expect it to be able to fight properly. It would be like putting the Colossus into FS1 and giving it 100% Terran Turrets. The Lucifer would still be able to beat it easily enough. But it may be possible they created superjuggernauts simply for fun, and not for actual fighting (like the ****ing French and their ****ing castles and statues).

1) Time. The Ancients had been colonizing for many THOUSAND years while Terrans and Vasudans had only a few centuries. Look at what the Ts and Vs came up with in a few years - the Colossus - and think about the Ancients.

They expanded for thousands of years before discovering subspace. I think the discovery of subspace is a major change of direction. The Ancients developed very fast in the area of subspace, but slower in the other areas (only a few decades ahead of the PVN and GTA, to paraphrase that quote).

The Ancients may have had a lot of time to expand, but they never needed to fight anything prior to finding subspace. If the Ancients had fought a civil war or a war against an equally advanced species (prior to the Shivans obviously) they would probably have been able to create something big.

You've got to understand that the Ancients never needed to fight anything really evil, so they had absolutely no need for a large capital ship.

2) Empire. The Empire was immense, who knows how many times larger than GTVA space. No doubt a very important shipbuilding facility could get materials from basically everywere. In addition, the Ancients must have had a strong and impressive economy.

Several galaxies possibly ("When we conquered and colonised in galaxies where we had no place the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom") but resources aren't the problem in the slightest. We have enough resources on Earth to build a 20km thing, I can assure you that.

An economy? To sell to who? I have to say that the Ancients most likely had a different governmental structure to us umies.

3) Pride&Assimilation. The Ancients were aggressive and the canon source above states that they SUBDUED civilizations and therefore had the possibility to learn a lot and benefit from the exploitation of entire races. Their pride could have brought them to the point of constructing something REALLY big, maybe for the sole purpose of showing pride.

Pride yes. Assimilation? No. They encountered tiny lifeforms "Strange, hideous, resisting, fighting" Lifeforms not capable of giving too much resistance. They fought them for a few months, not even a few years.

Besides, "Pride" completely contradicts "Assimilation." The point of the Ancients were that they thought they were the greatest, and nothing was above them. They didn't want to assimilate, their technology was the top dog. That's why they couldn't adapt when the Shivans came. And they were blown back to kingdom come (which evidently, was also blown up).

As for the civilizations they faced, the Ancient speaker refers to wars that took a while to arrive to an end(months). Do you really think that primitive civilizations could have resisted so long against such an immense and powerful empire? Look at FS1 and the technological gap between Terrans/Vasudans and Shivans. What was a small Shivan task force able to do against two species? We all know the answer... try to imagine massive Ancient fleets attacking a newly discovered civilization and finding resistance. No, forget that "I believe we can safely say they weren't anywhere near as advanced as the Ancients" because it isn't valid at all.

Primitive, exactly. They were primitive. How could the Ancients have learned things from primitive civilizations that they killed in mere months? The Ancients were easily able to kill species.

And what do you mean, "I believe we can safely say they weren't anywhere near as advanced as the Ancients" isn't valid at all? You've just said they were primitive, and now you're saying that your entire point is valid? What are you on about?

As for the discussion- keep on going. It helps me get certain ideas "normalised". Just don't get too far off topic, or to a flame-war, please.

I'll split it if it does.

[ShadowGorrath]

Vasudans as a backup plan ?

[Titan]

sure, but only use the really funky ones, none that are too-obviously vasudan.

[ShadowGorrath]

No, I'll probably use some Vasudan models for Ancient ships. I'll show screenies to see if any of them are good. But what I meant by "Vasudans as a backup plan" was how the Ancients treated the Vasudans.

[Mobius]

Where do you get that the Ancients had been colonizing for thousands of years?

I really think that their superior knowledge of subspace, and the fact that they weren't involved in any major wars (as Lobo said) is what allowed the Ancients' empire to grow so big.  We don't know how quickly it grew, however.  The fact that CANON states that the Ancients weren't too far ahead of us technology indicates that they haven't been in space for too much longer than us.

"For thousands of years our Empire expanded..."

Quoted from Ancients 1 Cutscene: For Thousands of years our Empire expanded
But my objection to Mobius' use of that is that they never said they were colonizing other systems for thousands of years.
That statment could very well be saying that some national empire on the Ancient's Homworld, like the Ancient Egyptians, expanded taking over their entire planet then eventually colonized their entire star system. I really dont think we'd be quite as far Mobius Says if the Ancient Egyptian empire still existed.

For so long, never did we encounter advanced life
Hey mankind has been expanding for over 10,000 years and we've yet to [officially] encounter aliens
In fact the ancients didnt start conquering other races till after they discovered subspace

My opinion of the Shivan ancient war is that it was a cross between the Earth-Minbari war and Various Shadow battles (Shadows vs narms, Shadows vs LONAW) from babylon 5.

Basically, the Ancients got r***ed.
No weapons capable of penetrating shields...so for the Ancients, nothing short of ramming them could stop shivan fighters and bombers.
No shields and Shivans undetectable

Which is a bit forced. We're talking about the "Ancient Empire", a reference to the level of colonization an entire race reached. Conquering a planet alone is not a big deal, you know.

Where's the problem with the others? They discover subspace after a certain period of time and rely on conventional engines until that moment. I don't know B5 so I can't get the reference to the wars you mentioned.

Anyways, they encountered MANY species, which means that the Empire and therefore its economical capabilities were immense.

Power? I thought it was technological level. And it can't really prevent a civilization from constructing something build, especially a very old one. Terrans in FS1 did have the capacity of building superdestroyer sized ships and maybe something bigger. Put together a fraction of all Terran destroyers and you have a juggernaut. Try to imagine an immense empire and you have MANY juggernaut. Think about the fact that the Ancients could even go further and you have one or more superjuggernauts(maybe not Inferno-like...something Nukemod-like).

Yes, it was technological level. But what you're saying is if you have enough time and patience, we could build something big, really big, just like that, even if we didn't have a lot of technology. This is untrue. How would you get enough energy to power a superjuggernaut, or enough weaponry to arm it. And even if you did, it would probably be an unfeasible warship. You can't build something so big with basic technology and expect it to be able to fight properly. It would be like putting the Colossus into FS1 and giving it 100% Terran Turrets. The Lucifer would still be able to beat it easily enough. But it may be possible they created superjuggernauts simply for fun, and not for actual fighting (like the ****ing French and their ****ing castles and statues).

Pointless as you don't know what Ancients anti capital weapons were about. We can only speculate about them and I don't exaggerate if I cite canon sources suggesting that the Ancients were able to level planets(entire races were crushed). In any case a big ship could have been used as giant carrier and/or as mobile docking points for other vessels and/or planet destroyers/levellers. Your knowledge can't prove me wrong and vice versa, but you can't exclude things that may be true and plausible.

They expanded for thousands of years before discovering subspace. I think the discovery of subspace is a major change of direction. The Ancients developed very fast in the area of subspace, but slower in the other areas (only a few decades ahead of the PVN and GTA, to paraphrase that quote).

The Ancients may have had a lot of time to expand, but they never needed to fight anything prior to finding subspace. If the Ancients had fought a civil war or a war against an equally advanced species (prior to the Shivans obviously) they would probably have been able to create something big.

You've got to understand that the Ancients never needed to fight anything really evil, so they had absolutely no need for a large capital ship.

The Ancients faced MANY races so the time they spent colonizing space was incredibly impressive. 1) You don't know how many years the Ancient Empire lasted and 2) Without considering the fact that your assumption about what they fought even inside their own Empire I mentioned many reasons behind the possible construction of a very big ship.

Several galaxies possibly ("When we conquered and colonised in galaxies where we had no place the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom") but resources aren't the problem in the slightest. We have enough resources on Earth to build a 20km thing, I can assure you that.

An economy? To sell to who? I have to say that the Ancients most likely had a different governmental structure to us umies.

I refer to the number of industries and overall to the amount of resources. If the main Ancient system asked for resources to build a massive ship it would have easily received them from the rest of the Empire. The amount of resources would have been enough to build MANY Superjugs and please don't try to claim the contrary because such an assumption would be illogical.

Pride yes. Assimilation? No. They encountered tiny lifeforms "Strange, hideous, resisting, fighting" Lifeforms not capable of giving too much resistance. They fought them for a few months, not even a few years.

Besides, "Pride" completely contradicts "Assimilation." The point of the Ancients were that they thought they were the greatest, and nothing was above them. They didn't want to assimilate, their technology was the top dog. That's why they couldn't adapt when the Shivans came. And they were blown back to kingdom come (which evidently, was also blown up).

You have a point about their incapacity to adapt to the Shivans but you can't exclude the fact that "they took the best" from defeated civilizations. Pride and Prize work fine together.

Primitive, exactly. They were primitive. How could the Ancients have learned things from primitive civilizations that they killed in mere months? The Ancients were easily able to kill species.

And what do you mean, "I believe we can safely say they weren't anywhere near as advanced as the Ancients" isn't valid at all? You've just said they were primitive, and now you're saying that your entire point is valid? What are you on about?

Please note that the Great War didn't last years and the TV war was initially supposed to be that long. There are things you can't be sure of. Did you expect such a fierce resistance from the Finnish in the Winter War? This aspect of wars asks for long discussions which require more data(we don't have it).

A species can be RELETIVELY primitive. War machines can be good but industrial capacity can be primitive. Pilots can be excellent but their spacecraft aren't able to match their opponents. The Ancients had the numbers and the power and, like the Shivans in FS1, that's enough to make the difference.

[Droid803]

I would just keep the largest ship as the Juggernaut-sized ship. (The three-tentacle thing in BP and PI). Its got a pretty huge hangar bay, so it could be an ancient carrier. Large carriers do make sense - you can only cram so many fighters into a small space. There would be no need for anything bigger, really. When things get to a certain size, maintenance and operating cost becomes unfeasible.

Why would you put all your eggs into one basket? Theres only so much functionality on an immense vessel. The only benefit, really is psychological - be it instilling fear in the enemy, or increasing morale through pride.

Besides, ships of that size or larger become plot devices. You can't really use them properly. Sure, you can get the Lucifer to annihilate a few...yea...that's about it. Do you really want to see a Demon mauling a SuperJugg?