Author Topic: Well that escalated quickly...  (Read 53051 times)

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Offline Spoon

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
Name me a few, because I can think of none.
I saw a (free trial) game last night called Girl Fight which is featured on the PS store which purports to be a "female fighting simulator" for which the box art is two extremely scantily clad anime looking girls feeling each other up.
Sounds right up my alley.

That's just the one I played most recently.  There's plenty of others to choose from.  Just look at the box art.  Does it have tits and arse?  Then it's a DOA Volleyball ripoff - a game which had literally no redeeming features beyond breast physics.
But that doesn't make it a 'DOA Volleyball ripoff.' Because it doesn't seem to involve volleyball at all. And DOA Volleyball didn't set some kind of new unprecedented trend that other developers started following, which is why you had me confused. I literally thought you meant there are boat loads of games I must have missed that ripped off the 'sexy volleyball' aspect. Just because a game tries to increase its sales with tits and asses doesn't make it a 'DOA Volleyball ripoff.' You are highly overrating dead or alive xtreme's impact. Sex sells, Dead or alive didn't set that trend.

Rightly so.  It was ****ing horrible.  I don't want to play a game where I stalk and rape someone.  I sure as hell don't want them to become mainstream.  They aren't the only games of that genre, though thankfully most of them are hideous flash based GIF art designed to last long enough to wank to.  I found one after one google search - I won't link to it but it involves forced anal intercourse all told from the perspective of a rape survivor recounting her "loving rape."

I can play vampires, mass murderers, even play DEFCON where I wipe out the human race, but I am not going to play a game where the reward for me clicking on a womans arse is to watch her squeal and scream "GET OFF ME" while getting a full frontal view of her genitals.

It's just...  messed up.  I could understand if there was a redeeming quality to the game itself, but there never is.  They're always awful, both in content and gameplay.  I don't play ****ty games unless there's a bit of comedy value for it.
I am not disagreeing with anything here. I was just pointing out that there was only one rapelay game, and not multiple as your post stated.

Er.  What?  I said I was LGBT in defense of the fact that someone implied that I don't know what harassment feels like.  Well, I do.  I never said a word about developers cowtowing to my personal desires.  My personal desires are more than happily dealt with in real life, thank you.  I don't need fantasy romance options to get my kicks.

Well I may have misread what you said, but to me it read like you were calling people who like certain niches scumbags while you point out how you fall in a particular niche yourself.

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Offline Rheyah

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
I thought we were coming at loggerheads for no reason, really.  I'm kinda glad that turned out to be the case :)

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
And going from one opinion to its opposite and then coming back around to the starting position is forbidden?

See, the thing is, the argument seems to boil down to "You said this one thing once, therefore whenever you are saying something else, you're lying", which I find to be rather silly.

Could you please stop doing that? Where have I said she is "forbidden" and so on? She's not. She can say whatever she wants to say and I'll have my opinions based on what I hear her say. To bring your level of discussion to my advantage, Are you forbidding me of having an opinion on Anita? Come on it's ridiculous.

Quote
I mean, the full quote is "...so it's not exactly a fandom, I'm not a fan of video games. I had to learn a lot about video games in the process of making this. And also, video games, I would love to play video games, but I don't want to go around shooting people and ripping off their heads, and it's just gross, so...".
Interesting how the video you cited cut out the "And also, video games, I would love to play video games, but..." part.
In addition, I'm having trouble seeing this as hard, irrefutable proof of duplicity. Seems to me that she's got an issue with the kinds of games that are pulling in the big money; not necessarily every game ever made.

Well, if she would "love to play video games but" that means she's not a gamer, period. Is this a problem? Not at all. You don't need to be a gamer to have an opinion on games. That's not my problem. My problem is that she goes on interviews claiming she is a gamer, always has been, she loves games, etc. Then, to her closest audience she says "shooting peopls is so gross". And again, this is not an argument against her claims.

Then she goes on making videos using other people's "Let's Play" without even a thank you note, or a reference or anything. Didn't she buy all those titles? What is she doing using all other people's videos if the research was hers anyway? And for all the academic talk, no source whatsoever in any of her videos. None. No link, no bibliography, zero, zilch.

Quote
Okay, so they're not causing misogynism. I can buy that. But are they helping in the defeat of misogyny? Or are they acting as a retardant? My guess is more towards the latter rather than the former, because most games are stuck in terms of gender representation on what game writers believe teenage boys can accept, which apparently isn't a whole lot.

Evidence that they are working as a "retardant"? Come on. People do not take games that seriously. People know fully well the difference between reality and games, and we kinda know they are silly teenage stupid little things. Now, can it be better written? Yes, obviously. I'm for all that ****. I love me good art, and if games are the "cinema of the 21st century" then there should definitely be a good discussion on how all the parts of a game entail exactly what messages, in what ways, etc., so that we at least know what we are doing more than "having fun".

But that's not what is happening right now. There's a huge polarization going on between durr durr monster gamerzz and social justice druids on the new "internet journalism media" landscape, with **** being flown from one side to the other, it's quite amazing to watch. No criticism can be made on the high priests of this new revolution lest one be accused of mysogyny or "being on the side of the monsters" or whatever. Anita and Quinn are beyond reproach right now because they have been elevated to the symbolic level of this revolution, which is mind-boggingly bonkers to me, and actually convinces me that all the revolutionaires don't really care about their cause, they only care about burning everything to the ground.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
Well, if she would "love to play video games but" that means she's not a gamer, period. Is this a problem? Not at all. You don't need to be a gamer to have an opinion on games. That's not my problem. My problem is that she goes on interviews claiming she is a gamer, always has been, she loves games, etc. Then, to her closest audience she says "shooting peopls is so gross". And again, this is not an argument against her claims.
I think we're going to need more context on that one. Games=/=shooting people. One can love gaming without caring about violence. She might love playing games, but not violent/bloody ones. And that's fine. I also don't care much for gore, though I don't mind it, either. ArmA could, perhaps, use more gruesome injuries, but only if they go hand-in-hand with an improved medical system (thus adding to gameplay). Not to mention plenty of games don't feature violence at all. People who flip-flop between opinions without a very good reason (or are dishonest about the fact they changed their mind) can be seen as unreliable, but in that case, she could've just been talking about shooters specifically. I think she knows better than to equate video games with violent shooters.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
Evidence that they are working as a "retardant"? Come on. People do not take games that seriously. People know fully well the difference between reality and games, and we kinda know they are silly teenage stupid little things. Now, can it be better written? Yes, obviously. I'm for all that ****. I love me good art, and if games are the "cinema of the 21st century" then there should definitely be a good discussion on how all the parts of a game entail exactly what messages, in what ways, etc., so that we at least know what we are doing more than "having fun".

This brings back the question: Do games (and other elements of pop culture) have the ability to influence opinions, or are they just "silly teenage stupid little things"? Are "silly teenage stupid little things" capable of forming the expectations of those who consume them?
Personally, I believe that this is the case. Yes, we know that it's just a game, or just a movie, or just a song. But if you're exposed to something over a long time, it's going to influence how you think and feel about the world outside of the game. Not in a big way, mind you, not in terms of "I like FPSes so I'm gonna shoot me a school", but in terms of "If I want to get into a relationship with a person, all I have to do is accumulate enough points until sex happens" (AKA the PUA problem).
When I play certain games, I feel emotions. I feel grief, anger, joy, hope, elation, satisfaction and disgust. Games certainly have an effect on me. Games, just like books and films, have shown me things about myself. I am thus not capable of shrugging and saying "no, this isn't important, this doesn't affect me".
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Offline deathfun

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
Quote
"IOW, viewing media that frames women as objects or sexual playthings profoundly impacts how women are perceived and treated in the world around them".
Quote
So, is the counterclaim then that media (not just games, but media in general) will never have any impact whatsoever on the opinions and attitudes of those who consume them?

This is where I brought up the point about age. The young (if you want an example of impressionable, see parenting) can be influenced far more easily than someone older, more mature and has a better understanding of society.

That is also why I brought up that games with settings like these should not be played by people *who aren't even able to go in them in real life*. Sure that changes from place to place, so my general rule is eighteen.

I am also not saying that twenty somethings cannot be influenced by media or society, it's just harder to pitch a new idea as everything they've learned prior in their life will influence how they receive that idea. If you're brought up thinking women are objects, then women are objects. The new idea to them being "They're not" isn't going to be received well as it turns everything they know upside down. Meanwhile, the ones that were taught that they were just as deserving as respect and fair treatment as anyone else, will see the message of them being objects and go "Well that isn't quite right" and either take issue with it overall, or accept that the particular media they're seeing was meant for a mature audience who already believe what they believe.


I suppose what I'm introducing is an extension of how genders are portrayed in games by adding in target age. If we're putting out games meant for teens or younger with gals always being the damsel in distress (see Mario), it's a possibility that they're going to take that as a message from the game as they're more susceptible to the influence of media. In the case of something like Hitman, a strip club is definitely *not* going to help that influence be *good* and should *not* be given to a ten year old for Christmas.

Mature themes for mature audiences. The issue isn't the game itself, it's who ends up seeing it.

Conclusion statement on that: Why is any of what I said relevant? It has nothing to do with the overall message about representation in games or Anita's point right? You're just saying that kids shouldn't be playing GTA. I'm saying it's more relevant than you'd think because it's who ends up playing these games anyway. As stated earlier, stripclubs are for adults and if your game has a stripclub, with that generally comes an M rating. M ratings are *supposed* to prevent little kids from experiencing them much like a bouncer at a door.

Yes, your game doesn't *need* a stripclub, but then again your game doesn't need a farm, or an office building, police station etc etc. Nothing needs to be in your game, but nothing should be off limits to use for political reasons (I'm referring to Anita's stance as political). Every location possible *needs* to be something a developer can choose to use without being scrutinized for their choice as otherwise you're technically trying to censor them.

If you don't want stripclubs in games meant for mature audiences, you damn well should be seen making statements about their existence in your city. That's how your argument will ever carry weight about chosen settings not being in the game.



EDIT:
Quote
When I play certain games, I feel emotions. I feel grief, anger, joy, hope, elation, satisfaction and disgust. Games certainly have an effect on me. Games, just like books and films, have shown me things about myself. I am thus not capable of shrugging and saying "no, this isn't important, this doesn't affect me".

This I agree with, though I can't help but notice the "certain games" part. Hitman, I'm going to presume, doesn't really hit you in the emotional department eh?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 10:31:10 am by deathfun »
"No"

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
Last time I can remember reading anything on the subject of brain-formation, it said that the human brain was still developing into the mid-twenties, but I don't think you'd have a lot of luck if you tried to say that M-rated games shouldn't be played until you're 25.
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(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
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<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
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(...)
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<MageKing17> more than two hours
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Offline deathfun

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
Last time I can remember reading anything on the subject of brain-formation, it said that the human brain was still developing into the mid-twenties, but I don't think you'd have a lot of luck if you tried to say that M-rated games shouldn't be played until you're 25.

Yes, the brain takes a while to fully develop, but at which point does the ability to determine how much something influences you becomes reinforced? I don't know which part of the brain that is, I'll have to look it up

EDIT: Prefrontal cortex is generally where the executive functions are located
(Executive function relates to abilities to differentiate among conflicting thoughts, determine good and bad, better and best, same and different, future consequences of current activities, working toward a defined goal, prediction of outcomes, expectation based on actions, and social "control" (the ability to suppress urges that, if not suppressed, could lead to socially unacceptable outcomes).)

Can take as long into your mid twenties to full develop (note "Can take" not "Will take")
Interesting article which relates to discussion
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24173194

However, on my points: Seeing something at 12 is still significantly more different than at 18. At eighteen, while still susceptible to influence, you're less so.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 10:43:55 am by deathfun »
"No"

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
This brings back the question: Do games (and other elements of pop culture) have the ability to influence opinions, or are they just "silly teenage stupid little things"? Are "silly teenage stupid little things" capable of forming the expectations of those who consume them?
Personally, I believe that this is the case. Yes, we know that it's just a game, or just a movie, or just a song. But if you're exposed to something over a long time, it's going to influence how you think and feel about the world outside of the game. Not in a big way, mind you, not in terms of "I like FPSes so I'm gonna shoot me a school", but in terms of "If I want to get into a relationship with a person, all I have to do is accumulate enough points until sex happens" (AKA the PUA problem).
When I play certain games, I feel emotions. I feel grief, anger, joy, hope, elation, satisfaction and disgust. Games certainly have an effect on me. Games, just like books and films, have shown me things about myself. I am thus not capable of shrugging and saying "no, this isn't important, this doesn't affect me".

I agree with all this. However, to actually determine what exactly is this influence that a game has on one's life is not something you can just assert on youtube as if it's obvious and even silly to question, because "gender studies" or some other ideologically filled, low-scientific content based study will tell you. I'd guess all these influences are really really hard to calculate, and to pretend that all speculations and hypothesis that are raised in this field are more than eloquent blind guesses is just wrong. You can even get the entire signal upside down! I can still remember how Mortal Kombat and so on were fought in the highest political echelons for the more than obvious consequences they would have in our society, only to observe an almost collapse on violence in all reported statistics henceforth. Many ad hoc explanations can come about to explain what "really" happened there, some had to do with games, others not so much (the most often shared, the idea that violent games distract people from real violent acts and so on), but because of the ad hoc nature of all of these, and given how hard it is to narrow down exactly what happens, what can we really say about this subject?

Better to have these conversations in a humbler way, tone down the condescending reasoning that "gender studies show therefore its true" shenanigan, and try to have a mature dialogue on what goes on or not. To drop the scientific pose is a requirement though.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
I suppose this is an oft-repeated argument, but I'm coming on to 42 years old now, and when I was young me and my friends used to run around the streets with plastic replica rifles and pistols playing 'War'. No specific War, just war in general.

Now, I will say that, during that game everyone involved was either a 'good guy' or a 'bad guy', you'd never convince someone to play a civilian, and the way we were raised would have probably meant that any civilians would need saving from the bad guys, and shooting one would lose the game.

I think it's about presentation and acknowledgement. And what I mean by that is, take games like Bioshock, which asks you to perform an act that is reprehensible (I've never actually chosen that option, though I don't mind if other people do), at least that makes it seem like a moral dilemma, that it is a choice that there will be repercussions for. Or even take something like Katamari Damacy, that games includes destruction on a Universe-wide scale, it is, in it's own charming way, one of the most destructive game ever created, and yet it's incredible fun because of its disconnection with reality.

It's interesting, when you think about it, that Saints Row 4 got past most of the morality merchants by consistently reminding the player that what was happening was inside a computer and that the 'civilians' are just images in the program...


 
Re: Well that escalated quickly...
"I am not a fan of videogames, I actually had to learn a lot about videogames in the process of doing this"

Proceeds to go on interviews claiming to "love games, I'm I'm a a f f  fan of videogames"

she also said in that same video "I would love to play video games but I don't want to go around shooting people, ripping their heads off". So I think it's somewhat open to interpretation. Either way the comments were levied four years ago, things may have changed since then.

You know it's interesting.
I got into this very same discussion on a completely unrelated site of the internet. And you know what that person talked about? The things you're quoting AND hitman absolution.

Like, you critics. Are you actually crticizing her videos? Or are you watching videos which criticize her and repeating what they said? It honestly seems like the latter. And if your only criticism is repeating what another guy said then don't you think you should watch these videos for yourself and make up your own mind about it? Like Hitman absolution is one example out of twenty or so from a video yet it's the only one that people talk about? Why is that? Is it that the rest of her video is flawless? Is this one example the only one that you can criticize?

Just sounds like the party line. And if she has dozens of videos and it's the only criticism is a few examples then it sounds kinda weak to be honest.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 08:18:41 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline deathfun

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
That seems like a challenge for me to watch all her videos
That's also a lot of effort for absolutely no reward or point
"No"

 
Re: Well that escalated quickly...
That seems like a challenge for me to watch all her videos
That's also a lot of effort for absolutely no reward or point

Well it's great to know you both have an open mind and speak from experience.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 11:13:12 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
Hitman absolution is one example out of twenty or so from a video yet it's the only one that people talk about? Why is that? Is it that the rest of her video is flawless? Is this one example the only one that you can criticize?

because it's the easiest target, it's the most obvious staging of a situation that is intended to misrepresent the game and it's tone.
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Offline deathfun

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
That's hardly an improvement

But I'll bite anyways and say that simply because I find them not really captivating to watch and the fact there is a lot to watch does not mean I don't have an open mind. I don't know where the whole speaking from experience comes from though

To me, it'd be a waste of my time to watch something that isn't really interesting to me. Gender roles and characters in some games don't portray women as empowering, while others sexualize them and then others make damn good characters with them. In the end, I'm not interested in the politics of my games; I'm only interested if my game is entertaining to play. Only when the discussion starts associating irrelevant behaviours in game do I step in and make note that a player's actions in game do not necessarily equate to gender issues in real life
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
I've always seen it as a little bit of 'letting the devil out'. In other words, we all talk about having the analogy of an 'angel' and a 'devil' on our shoulders, one is compassionate the other gratuitous and selfish, and both are tempting us.

Thing is, take the mage from Skyrim that I keep shouting into the abyss, I don't do it because she is a 'she' at all, I do it because she keeps saying she thinks she'd be a better Archmage and, to me it's not violence against a woman, it's violence against someone who is really annoying. Now, in real life, I'd walk away long before I resorted to violence, that is an option in-game as well, but when you are in a safe environment like a game, you can listen to that devil a little more freely.

I cannot say whether that has affected my thinking, since I have no Control experiment to compare it with, no way of knowing what sort of person I'd be if I hadn't played violent games, but I suppose it's down to the individual as much as the media.

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
because it's the easiest target, it's the most obvious staging of a situation that is intended to misrepresent the game and it's tone.
Please explain how the gameplay is any more "staged" than any other gameplay video, and exactly how it "misrepresents the tone" of Hitman: Absolution.
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schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

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"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
because it is a stealth game, killing random civilians is more likely to lose you the game. you are supposed to sneak by those strippers. and the only reason she has footage of someone killing them and playing with the bodies is because she did it. she did it just so she could show how objectifying of women the game is.
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Offline deathfun

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
because it is a stealth game, killing random civilians is more likely to lose you the game. you are supposed to sneak by those strippers. and the only reason she has footage of someone killing them and playing with the bodies is because she did it. she did it just so she could show how objectifying of women the game is.

Um
http://youtu.be/MVElJbjDqOs?t=14m29s

(Embed doesn't seem to want to work)
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Offline The E

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
because it is a stealth game, killing random civilians is more likely to lose you the game. you are supposed to sneak by those strippers. and the only reason she has footage of someone killing them and playing with the bodies is because she did it. she did it just so she could show how objectifying of women the game is.

And it still is. The fact that you can kill the strippers is incidental to the fact that you have to pass through an area filled with scantily clad females. The only reason that scene is in there is because someone thought "Let's have an assassination in a strip club" during the design phase, and the only reason those women are there because someone decided it would be a good idea to have that assassination play out while the club is doing business.
At all points, there was someone on the design team who argued for the presence of these women. Women explicitly designed to titillate and arouse.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns