Author Topic: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs  (Read 5230 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
While the Shetlands is an unlikely one, there are other examples in other countries - the First Nations within Quebec being an excellent one - that have much better claims.

Why are the Shetlands unlikely? The islanders in general tend to feel they have **** all to do with Scotland. Most of them feel more connection to their Norwegian roots than Scotland.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/shetland-may-reconsider-place-scotland-yes-vote-alistair-carmichael

The Shetlands have the option of becoming a crown dependency like The Isle of Man and Channel Islands. In fact, that's probably very much in their interest since they are quite oil rich with a low population. I'd love to see how Alex Salmond can persuade them not to do that and yet not sound like an echo chamber of everything he complains about from Westminster.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
I guess speaking generally, beyond the unique historical sentiments involved in this case, I have a hard time seeing how increased Balkanization really serves anyone's interests in the long run.  I'm probably just being naive, but I'd figured that the 21st century would start to see a gradual move away from ever-smaller nation-states, not an increase in them.  Either way the vote goes, it seems like there's going to be a lot of real bitterness left over.

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
Perhaps the pieces were put together the wrong way and the thing has to be taken apart again before it can be reassembled correctly.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
Maybe, but will the rest of the UK even want Scotland back if they leave?
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
I only hope this won't destabilize global economy too much. If Scotland establishes it's own currency, then I can see some economical benefits, but otherwise, it could be trouble.

In general, I think that instead of dividing, we should link and connect as much as we can. Europe is at a stage where nations and states are becoming more and more irrelevant. IMO, there's a lot more to be gained by building transnational structures and, eventually, moving away from the concept of "countries" altogether.

 
Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
But with that is a need for effective regional government, something which the UK government is sorely lacking (in England moreso than Scotland, admittedly).
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
Quote
It has a large financial sector which is used to finance resource exploration, essential to Scotland's development.
Oh god, do I have to explain to you that a government can create its own currency at will? If Scotland adopts its own currency it will be able to create all the financial resources it needs for internal investment. It might seek external financial support to stabilize the exchange rate for a couple of years, but they can get that without asking England for help.

And yes, this is all assuming Scotland adopts a new currency and gets trade deals done. But Scotland has valuable exports, ESPECIALLY if the Ukraine crisis leaves the EU starved for energy. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to get it done.

Do you realize the amount of effort it will take to create a stable currency in Scotland with a stable valuation that will be trusted by investors?

Scotland, economically, has ONE thing going for it economically on its own: petroleum.  A currency valuation based on petroleum extraction is inherently unstable.  Scotland on its own will have a much more difficult time - at least, for the next few years - funding the very petroleum exploration and extraction that it would be dependent on to survive as an independent nation without the Pound Sterling or the UK's financial sector.

This is the reason that Salmond and his brethren are so desperate to keep the Pound Sterling as their currency, and retain some control over it (and while the UK can't necessarily force Scotland to give up the pound, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that they'll allow an independent Scotland a say in how the currency is actually managed by the Bank of England.  Mark Carney is a smart man who got his experience governing a currency with the issue of Quebec hanging over his head).

I only hope this won't destabilize global economy too much. If Scotland establishes it's own currency, then I can see some economical benefits, but otherwise, it could be trouble.

There really is no economic benefit to yet another independent nation and currency in Europe.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
But with that is a need for effective regional government, something which the UK government is sorely lacking (in England moreso than Scotland, admittedly).

The real issue is this:  the UK has never effectively managed to delegate regional governance.  Part of this is the fault of the Westminster parliamentary system to begin with; devised in Britain, it serves a geographically small country with relatively low population reasonably well.  In the places where it has migrated that don't meet those criteria, regional governance modelled along the same lines has spprung up (Canada, Australia being the best examples).  Britain's subsequent population explosion occurred, and their governance systems never caught up.

Scotland doesn't need independence from the UK.  It - and the rest of the regions of the UK outside of greater London - need to convince Westminster that proper regional governance (federalism!) is now a necessity in the UK.  It would fix more than just Scotland's issues too.
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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
Right. But, as I said before, the reason independence is seriously on the cards right now at all is that Westminster didn't allow a federalist option.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
Right. But, as I said before, the reason independence is seriously on the cards right now at all is that Westminster didn't allow a federalist option.

I realize that - but, do you really think Scotland would be better served by severing itself from the UK, or by working within the UK to move to a federalist model? (Because, let's face it, after this debacle, even with a no vote there's going to be some major pressure on Westminster to seriously look at democratic reform).
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
So the really important questions if Scotland secedes are:

Does the Union Jack lose all the blue? 

Who gets the construction gig refitting Hadrian's Wall to keep them out of Britannia?

 :P
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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
The Union Jack would stay the same, and rebuilding Hadrian's wall might cause some upset in Northumberland.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
How else will we maintain immigration control? We keep the blue as we.........won it fair and square ;)



My most interesting consideration is how the army would handle predominantly Scottish regiments, scottish serving soldiers, and the navy losing Faslane nuclear sub base just outside glasgow.
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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
if i've interpreted the no campaign correctly, losing faslane means the subs will be sailed off somewhere and launch their missiles at random
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
I am Portuguese and even I am psyched! What will happen?

 
Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
Most likely a No win by a fairly narrow margin, like it has been for a while.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
I guess I'd never realized that the UK didn't have anything resembling a functional system of federalism.  Hell, we figured that out all the way back in 1787 (and just celebrated its birthday yesterday).  Get with the 18th century, chaps! :p

  
Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
Well the UK is smaller than most US states, so it's not really surprising...
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
Looks like they said no.

Not really a huge surprise. The surprise though, is that so many said no.
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Offline AtomicClucker

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Re: Braveheart 2. Election ya bessahs
I'm looking forward to the analysis of how the votes finally came out and resulted in the "No" faction winning. I was personally expecting a draw or a lengthy recount.

However, I recommend the Scots send any and all of Cameron's fellows hiding in Parliament a fine course of Haggis, Scotch, and some Blue n' White knickers. If one thing's been stated, Cameron got a kick to the balls.

I hope the Tories learn something from this, but knowing the Tories, good luck.
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