Author Topic: Of motivations and Shivans  (Read 28527 times)

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
The Bosch monologues are too lovingly written and too central to be thrown out as pure delusion, though

To parrot you: why?

There's an element of hubris to Bosch's assumption he just needs to use the language of the xenocidal monsters and everything is hunky-dory. Whether that's just garden-variety arrogance or classical hubris in the sense of challenging or claiming to comprehend the divine, it's definitely there.

People describe FS2's themes of arrogance. I've argued a long time that Terran Command, however, did the best it could; you've even largely agreed with that argument. Bosch, on the other hand, should be treated better? Hell the entire story of FS2's about a shaggy dog as far as the player's concerned. There's no reason to assume Bosch's story isn't meant to end the same way.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
I was about to quote your frequent arguments that command isn't stupid.

It seems rather unfair to assume that the GTVA government must be. And I really can't see how Bosch's monologues can be correct unless they are.

I hadn't been thinking along the lines of hubris but it is a great point. Bosch is obviously arrogant enough to believe that he alone can understand the Shivans. It fits perfectly with the tone of FS2 if he is as mistaken as the GTVA claims that the destruction of the Ravana and then Sathanas proves their superiority over the Shivans.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 11:22:46 pm by karajorma »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
There's a frustrating through-line here of treating 'the Bosch monologues can be mined for meaning' as identical to 'Bosch is right about everything' or 'Bosch will solve Shivans with diplomacy.'

To me the challenge is using the content of the monologues to make things more interesting and menacing.

Treating something as important is not the same as treating it as simple fact. Bosch's insights, like the Ancients, are attached to a structure and a belief system.

One of the core principles of BP writing has always been finding ways to use as much of the canonical information as possible to create interesting stories. The NEMESIS NOW brief about the Rephaim engagement, for example, even managed to mine a continuity error about the Thutmose and Sopedu to build on the Nagari story.

I can see a lot of ways to write a very good story about Bosch being wholly insane or just deeply misguided and manipulated. But I would hold those stories to a standard - they'd need to be as good as those I can tell with Bosch in possession of fragmentary insight.

I was about to quote your frequent arguments that command isn't stupid.

It seems rather unfair to assume that the GTVA government must be. And I really can't see how Bosch's monologues can be correct unless they are.

I hadn't been thinking along the lines of hubris but it is a great point. Bosch is obviously arrogant enough to believe that he alone can understand the Shivans. It fits perfectly with the tone of FS2 if he is as mistaken as the GTVA claims that the destruction of the Ravana and then Sathanas proves their superiority over the Shivans.

Your question has been answered at great length in the assorted BP materials! I think you'd like the way it handles making GTVI smart at the same time it grants Bosch an ambiguous status somewhere between visionary and tragic pawn.

In general I think you guys are too quick to take corners and pass over the more complicated, ambiguous stories in the middle.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
I'm being too hardline too, though. There are good stories to be told under a wide range of interpretations. I think we've found one that makes GTVI very smart, Bosch a tragic messiah, Bosch a foolish pawn, and GTVI an insanely overmatched organ of desperation.

I am less interested in arguing that stories are bad than in pushing solutions I think can turn out well.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
I will Boschpost more when I'm not drunk.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
Actually, I'm not taking a corner. You're saying that you tried to mine the game for as much as you can, guess what, I've been doing the same thing for years too. Both on my own and as part of the MindGames team.

I'm quite happy to accept various stories which have Bosch as being correct. But they do need to explain the inconsistencies in the GTVA's behaviour. If Blue Planet does that, great. But it's not the only possible interpretation and I think you forgot that when you tried to claim that we can't throw out the monologues. Both NGTM-1R and I pointed out that what I had posted in no way devalued the monologues as being unimportant.

What I dislike is people taking the simplistic "Bosch was right and command were wrong" approach. Command are not idiots. You might not be doing that but I'll point out that my first post on this thread wasn't a reply to you anyway.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
I don't think we disagree on any fundamental point.

I've always been a big advocate for narrative heterodoxy. If you've got a cool interpretation that makes a good story, tell it!

 

Offline qwadtep

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
It's perfectly possible that Bosch and the GTVA are right. Even Command's information is incomplete--the method to Bosch's madness may have become frighteningly apparent only once the GTVA began to pour over the defeated NTF's records.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
Yes. And it's also possible that GTVI elements groomed and abetted Bosch in pursuing an agenda they couldn't achieve on their own. Or they they engineered the NTF rebellion as an intentional recapitulation of the T/V war in order to trigger a Shivan response. Or that both sides were manipulating each other while holding partial information, the GTVI in need of ETAK but Bosch in possession of some messianic vision.Or that Bosch was able to draw the Shivans' attention in a not-immediately-violent sense, but without fully understanding what he'd set in motion. There are lots of ways to play the story without flipping a switch between 'Bosch right' and 'GTVA right.'

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
Or they they engineered the NTF rebellion as an intentional recapitulation of the T/V war in order to trigger a Shivan response.
Ooh...now that one you could get some mileage out of.  (Or maybe you guys already did in BP; I'm woefully behind!)

 
Re: Of motivations and Shivans
I've not seen that really explored in BP to date.
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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
Here are some things people value in decisionmaking and organization:

Who is leaning on habits of anthropocentrism now? :p

Case in point:

Quote
Efficient, top-down application of resources. Build a model of the problem. Figure out how to solve it. Don't waste time on trial and error.

Alternatively, devote all your time to trial and error.  Throw every single possible thing at the problem and see what works and what doesn't.  For the things that work, explore variations.  This approach to problem-solving can be found in neural network programming, genetic algorithms, and even emergent behavior in chaotic systems such as ants foraging for food.  (Hey look, a colony with a queen!)

It's also why SpaceX has been so successful designing rockets: they went back to the drawing board on everything.  This may be why some people contend that Elon Musk is actually an alien.

What is the greatest algorithm of all time? Evolution.

From a bunch of RNA molecules, it produced highly efficient computation structures (brains) that can self-direct evolution itself and will be capable of manipulating space-time.

And the intellectual-ness of this entire thread is why I <3 the HLP community.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 03:30:57 pm by SmashMonkey »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
Evolution is not so much good as it is least bad. It's a really ****ty way to solve problems in a number of respects.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
The NEMESIS NOW brief about the Rephaim engagement, for example, even managed to mine a continuity error about the Thutmose and Sopedu to build on the Nagari story.

:lol: Wow, this is Star Wars-level of fanon extrapolation!

 
Re: Of motivations and Shivans
So am I basically just making myself look like an idiot here?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
No, you caused and contributed to a great thread!

 
Re: Of motivations and Shivans
Okay, good.

 

Offline qwadtep

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
Evolution is not so much good as it is least bad. It's a really ****ty way to solve problems in a number of respects.
Evolution is a great algorithm if time is no issue, and you don't want to put any work in yourself. I mean, sure, you could invest huge amounts of capital and manpower into city planning.. or you could let amoebae that have been slowly working out similar algorithms for millions of years do it for you.

 
Re: Of motivations and Shivans
Back to the begining of the topic here-I always had a somewhat romantic and simplistic view of FS2 events. Never a fan of the hive mind theory. Not a huge fan of duality either. It's kinda hard to write about this knowing events from BP so forgive me for borrowing or ignoring certain concepts or facts. Also, I won't bother trying to think or reason any other way than we, humans do, because that'd just look like a today's kid trying to play tetris by touching the screen. So it's a much more grounded theory than ones before here, and BP.

So, explaining Shivan behaviour starts from:
1. Motivation. Whether they're the universe itself or simple, individual beings like ourselves, something must have triggered their appearances. To explain that, one has too observe both incursions. What is the common denominator GT(V)A behaviour in both instances? War ? Hardly, since Bosch believes in the threat of second incursion even before it happens. Did he call them the second time? Seems a cheap way to explain it. For them to behave that way, or any other way, we must have interfered with their interests. Whichever it is, even the young, self-destructive soceties of Terrans and Vasudans realised that Shivans are here to stay. So from a Shivan big picture standpoint, time between the two incursions seems irrelevant. It also doesn't matter how small of a blip on their radar our interference is. Our insignificance would be no reason for them to stay away and that's something we can easily identify in our own behaviour/society. So since their first showing until Capella and beyond, all three parties are of the same thought-GT(V)A existence is in great jeopardy.

The previous passage surely dissapointed those who are of the idea of a greater sense in Shivans, but isn't that the exact anthropocentric argument we're trying to avoid? That we, with our actions and deeds are so important, that the ever present, all dimensional, time bending(for a lack of better term), universe policing "specie" has decided to step in? I choose the other way, that IT is still a lot bigger than all of us, and that we are simply crossing paths with those who wield a bigger axe at the moment.   

2. Execution.   I'd split this one into two, individual and group.
As individuals, Shivans do show some similarities. They are fighting for a greater cause and are part of a greater scheme. They don't want to die. They don't have unlimited resources but do have a lot. They have logistical issues of movement through space. They fear their rivals and attempt to defeat them and get rid of them. Here's an interesting one: despite possible advantages, they don't want to hang around and learn too much and cooperate with others, they'd much rather wipe them out and use what they can. Now many might say otherwise but I really don't see us, or Terrans, judging by their actions, as tolerant beings ready and brave enough for cooperation on an even footing level. As masters, yes, probably. As slaves, possibly. Otherwise, no. Shivans take it a step further and don't even try the diplomacy route. Which brings us to the main difference. Unlike humans, they are able to execute their plans for the greater good with great efficiency and reckless abandon. They don't question, second guess or fear. Those traits are at the core of their advanced state, which enabled them to live for so long and be so successful and strong. There's no point in fearing if you're smart enough to blindly follow a good plan, given to you by a higher power on a bigger scale(such as going into a war) and thought out by yourself in moment to moment living (such as dogfighting). Those traits are what enable Shivans not to mourn their fallen comrades. Sadness in that regard is a product of, ultimately, deep personal reasons. It is also very unproductive especially in terms of fighting a war. They don't retaliate when angry, because getting angry is for the stupid. They don't operate on petty feelings humans take a lot of pride in. We can call them machine-like, they would call us stupid. We are unnecessary, stupid and disruptive and they have no problem in killing us all. We're like ants in someone's field wondering why someone is taking that big shovel to our home.

As a group, apart from points already made, Shivans face similar problems to GTVA but are much better equipped to deal with them. Many question their tactics and quickly dismiss traditional explanations, and start going beyond and over these simplistic views. I guess going from 1 to 100 Juggernauts will do that to a person. While frying most of them in  a supernova just like that. It's a big challenge to conventional war theories. First of all, it shows Shivans as mystical and impossible to understand, which is agreed upon by all at this point. Second, it clearly says they could annihilate us with ease so why don't they? That's when a strong parallel with our wolrd comes in. How many superpowers today could destroy beyond recognition those who defy them? And why don't they ? The numbers add up. Just take a look at sheer numbers of US Navy for example. Makes the second incursion look like a fair fight. :D But there are bigger issues at play, and here we again get to that dreaded topic of anthropocentrism. We are a miniature thorn in a giant's eye. It's not worth sending a quarter of the fleet accross half the galaxy, possibly guarding some of the more important systems in the galaxy, to completely exterminate us. We are either very local(read:small, unimportant) or too big to dispense that easily. Another possible explanation is we're intriguing. There's something potentially useful about us. We're not obeyant but are very intriguing. How does Bosch play into that intrigue of ours? He certainly isn't happy to let his grandkids sit around, living their life with a dark red axe hanging over their head. He wants to reason with the beast, carve a space for us in the universe. Certainly a trait of a great ruler, one who even under some other empire's rule manages to make life manageable to his people. Not everyone can be a Zhukov or Churchill. It's the easy, obvious, and correct explanation for Bosch. Whether he's being used by GTVA is beside the point almost. Personally I'd say GTVA are sitting on two chairs, letting Bosch "slip through" while simultanously trying their luck in a straight fight. He probably knows it as well, and is partly happy, partly annoyed at them for not making it an official top priority.
Capella is one that I struggle to explain. "Here's what we can do" ? A line in the sand?  A tactical blowout of an important GTVA system? A future nebula, where they often operate? It's too late and already waaay too long of a post so I'll leave that for another time, cheers. :)

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Of motivations and Shivans
I guess I'm not seeing where your narrative differs much from what's been discussed up thread. Do you have specific explanations for the motives and means of the Shivans, or for the changes in their behavior between the games?

I suppose I'm saying: well written post, but what's the takeaway?