Poll

How would you rate the campaign so far?

Greatest campaign ever done! (don't pick this)
2 (4.9%)
With a few changes it could be great!
1 (2.4%)
Good, I look forward to the rest.
15 (36.6%)
It was alright, could use work (not bug related).
7 (17.1%)
It was awful! Bleh, I say! Bleh!
0 (0%)
Who let you near a computer?
1 (2.4%)
Snuffalupagus
15 (36.6%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Author Topic: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews  (Read 15422 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline eliex

  • 210
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
It should also be noted that most of the Lost Generation in Polaris, Sirius, and Regulus joined the NTF Rebellion during it's early stages. It reflects how in the past how governmental changes uses students to carry out their propaganda.

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

  • Captain Oblivious
  • 212
  • Prevents attraction.
    • Wordpress.com Blog
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
Like Mao Zedong and Adolf Hitler?
My blog | My Connection Speed

Quote: 16 September 2016 Friday, 2028hrs UTC+8, #hard-light
[20:28:44] <Hades> i want you guys to know that i'm using the stop font as my irc font
[20:28:46] <Hades> it is a bad time
[20:29:12] <Oddgrim-Work> Change the font to vasudan standard and then you'll have a bad time
[20:29:24] <Hades> http://i.imgur.com/N2f8qA4.png
[20:29:47] <z64555> change the font to vasudan comic sans, then you'll have a real bad time
[20:30:02] <Oddgrim-Work> Thats a terrible font
[20:30:06] <EvilBagel> comic headz

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • The Lightblue Ribbon
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
You also need to take in consideration that all Terran forces in the GTVA sent to deal with the NTF might react in an unexpectable way. Many of the Terran sortied to help the Vasudans lost relatives in the Terran-Vasudan War, not to mention that so many new officers were part of the Lost Generation, an easy target for Bosch's ideals.

The Terran branch of GTVA authorities is not supposed to be the legitimate one, since it was formed by a group of individuals who exploited the collapse of the Sol jump node in Delta Serpentis to replace the true center of the GTA, Sol. It's pretty obvious that someone might not have shared the choice and defected to the NTF in order to fight for a different and possibly more legitimate authority.


Back on topic, speaking of the campaign (which is NTV's rival, in a good way :)) I really have to share Snail's opinion. I don't want to venture in political discussions...I'd rather analyze AG's FREDding choices. I didn't really like how NTF forces...



Spoiler:
There are fighters, bomber and warships sortied to fight the player, and that's weird. The NTF knows from the beginning that they're severely outnumbered so they'd be acquiring ships and spacecraft instead of attempting to destroy them.

Spending most of the time fighting incoming waves of spacecraft is not a good example of FREDding, IMO.
[/mobius]

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
Another thing I didn't like was how:

Spoiler:
You were able to easily tell who was an enemy and who wasn't simply through a short IFF scan. And the part where the Adellan went hostile, you just used change-iff rather than anything creative. In a more interesting situation, it would have been more interesting if there was total chaos in which only the NTF know what's going on -- I didn't sense the chaotic fog of war in AG that I always imagined taking place in the beginning of the NTF rebellion.

I also agree with Mobius on the fact that the NTF weren't acting like an intelligent enemy force, they were acting more like the generic Derelict-type pirates who just try blow things up for no reason regardless of how many pilots they lose in the process. This was further reinforced by the whole waved wings thing. I really don't like waved wings in any missions. To me it just seems like they were put in there to lengthen the mission rather than add more experience to it.


And on the political front, I really don't think the NTF rebellion would have been that organized at the beginning. I seriously doubt that the defectors would all have defected at the same time, all have stayed quiet at the beginning and organized some kind of secret conspiracy uprising thing.

As I said before, judging from the intelligence entry, especially the mention of a "domino effect", I always envisioned the beginning of the rebellion as a far more spontaneous event, in that it wasn't planned and people just decided to join in for the ride. Not so much a conspiracy as a giant huge riot which evolved into a proper military force. Given that ships were defecting even around 17 months into the rebellion (NTC Trinity), I don't really believe it was such an organized and well-planned beginning. Rather I think it was just the GTVA's lack of action and inability to address the problem in time that allowed the NTF to rise to power.

Additionally, I doubt that the political climate before the NTF rebellion's uprising would have been that calm and relaxed. Despite what I said about it being spontaneous, I don't think that the NTF rebellion would have just jumped out of the blue. The way I see it, Regulus, Sirius and Polaris would have been wrought with political turmoil and anger even before the rebellion. The NTF rebellion was just the result of this. Big rebellions don't spring out of the blue like they did in AG. I think that the GTVA would have expected something similar to happen, but didn't anticipate the sheer scale of the violence. AG's portrayal of this period as a kind of calm, peaceful time that suddenly got interrupted by the uprising, IMO, was pretty shallow.




But ignore my ramblings!! The campaign was great, I really did enjoy it. Above is just what I would do if I were making a similar campaign...

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

  • Captain Oblivious
  • 212
  • Prevents attraction.
    • Wordpress.com Blog
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
In that case the NTF must have started small then, before it slowly expanded to encompass three systems.

It may be for the reason of acquiring supplies that the NTF rejects BETAC because they know they don't stand a chance against the full strength of the GTVA, but then attacking feasible ships like convoys, which usually involve civilians, violates BETAC. Perhaps they built their initial strength from attacking civilian convoys, as well as solitary smaller warships before trying to capture something larger, like an Orion. Maybe the materials they hijacked from the convoys also contributed in the construction of the Boadicea.
My blog | My Connection Speed

Quote: 16 September 2016 Friday, 2028hrs UTC+8, #hard-light
[20:28:44] <Hades> i want you guys to know that i'm using the stop font as my irc font
[20:28:46] <Hades> it is a bad time
[20:29:12] <Oddgrim-Work> Change the font to vasudan standard and then you'll have a bad time
[20:29:24] <Hades> http://i.imgur.com/N2f8qA4.png
[20:29:47] <z64555> change the font to vasudan comic sans, then you'll have a real bad time
[20:30:02] <Oddgrim-Work> Thats a terrible font
[20:30:06] <EvilBagel> comic headz

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
In that case the NTF must have started small then, before it slowly expanded to encompass three systems.
Err, no. According to the intel entry the rebellion grew to encompass Sirius, Regulus and Polaris within a few weeks. The way I see it, these three systems had been neglected by the Reconstruction era's "miraculous recovery" and the people in there were just bloody pissed off at the GTVA, the Vasudans, life, the universe and everything. When Bosch came along with his idea of Neo-Terra, all the angwy pepoe in the three systems saw it as an opportunity to make things better (ie. cause trouble). Thus, in a short space of time, lots and lots of people grabbed their weapons and ships and started shooting.

It may be for the reason of acquiring supplies that the NTF rejects BETAC because they know they don't stand a chance against the full strength of the GTVA, but then attacking feasible ships like convoys, which usually involve civilians, violates BETAC. Perhaps they built their initial strength from attacking civilian convoys, as well as solitary smaller warships before trying to capture something larger, like an Orion.
Well, I dunno. I don't think the NTF would have become very popular killing civilians, at least not at the beginning. Vasudan civilians would have been fair game, sure, but I don't think they'd just kill civilians they could potentially get sympathy out of.

Maybe the materials they hijacked from the convoys also contributed in the construction of the Boadicea.
The Boadicea is weird. We know the Iceni was built before the Boadicea so the rocks and stuff must have been built around it or something...
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 06:29:19 am by Snail »

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

  • Captain Oblivious
  • 212
  • Prevents attraction.
    • Wordpress.com Blog
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
In that case the NTF must have started small then, before it slowly expanded to encompass three systems.
Err, no. According to the intel entry the rebellion grew to encompass Sirius, Regulus and Polaris within a few weeks. The way I see it, these three systems had been neglected by the Reconstruction era's "miraculous recovery" and the people in there were just bloody pissed off at the GTVA, the Vasudans, life, the universe and everything. When Bosch came along with his idea of Neo-Terra, all the angwy pepoe in the three systems saw it as an opportunity to make things better (ie. cause trouble). Thus, in a short space of time, lots and lots of people grabbed their weapons and ships and started shooting.

Good thoughts. I should read up on canon Intelligence more often. :nervous:


It may be for the reason of acquiring supplies that the NTF rejects BETAC because they know they don't stand a chance against the full strength of the GTVA, but then attacking feasible ships like convoys, which usually involve civilians, violates BETAC. Perhaps they built their initial strength from attacking civilian convoys, as well as solitary smaller warships before trying to capture something larger, like an Orion.
Well, I dunno. I don't think the NTF would have become very popular killing civilians, at least not at the beginning. Vasudan civilians would have been fair game, sure, but I don't think they'd just kill civilians they could potentially get sympathy out of.

Attacking doesn't equate to killing, though. Perhaps they captured the civilians, convinced them to join the NTF and then claim that they've "liberated" these captives from the GTVA.


Maybe the materials they hijacked from the convoys also contributed in the construction of the Boadicea.
The Boadicea is weird. We know the Iceni was built before the Boadicea so the rocks and stuff must have been built around it or something...

Well, at the time of FreeSpace 2, you could see some structure sticking out of the asteroid, so maybe that signified incomplete concealment. I remember that the Boadicea hid the Iceni completely, though, so maybe there were some other amenities built in the breakable portions of the Boadicea.
My blog | My Connection Speed

Quote: 16 September 2016 Friday, 2028hrs UTC+8, #hard-light
[20:28:44] <Hades> i want you guys to know that i'm using the stop font as my irc font
[20:28:46] <Hades> it is a bad time
[20:29:12] <Oddgrim-Work> Change the font to vasudan standard and then you'll have a bad time
[20:29:24] <Hades> http://i.imgur.com/N2f8qA4.png
[20:29:47] <z64555> change the font to vasudan comic sans, then you'll have a real bad time
[20:30:02] <Oddgrim-Work> Thats a terrible font
[20:30:06] <EvilBagel> comic headz

 

Offline Rodo

  • Custom tittle
  • 212
  • stargazer
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
I have to agree in the concept that the assumption by the player of units being enemies and allies in this release was quite easy, there where no last minute traitors or so in situations where this kind of tactics would surely be of great use.

All other mentioned points are your own concepts of how the NTF is and how did it surge out of the water, of course many will agree with you but the general script for the campaign has already been sorted out by Blue Lion so we're sticking to that one.

because they know they don't stand a chance against the full strength of the GTVA

that's assuming that Bosch was already thinking about outrunning the GTVA and forming it's own government, I think Bosch acted more because of the general misstreat that they where suffering from GTVA, impulsed by popular and military unrest.
He took the lead, but was no funder of anything....he just was pointed as the responsible by GTVA because obviously a revellion such as the NTF should always be seen as a general conspiracy and never as a general riot.

Well, I dunno. I don't think the NTF would have become very popular killing civilians, at least not at the beginning.

agreed completely...

I don't think that was the original idea on Bosch mind in fact I think it was just a method to keep it's ranks still loyal... you know converts can convert again and in grater number if they are being defeated.
note I said "original idea on Bosch mind" actually when he took the command of the NTF he had to give those forces a purpose IMO, there's where the ancient artifact search was started....memories of a greater and much more important days in his life come to the mind of Bosch and well his own crusade to turn the NTF into something AND something more righteous is started, my thinking is based only on the messages that Bosch left in the monologues.
remember that Bosch said he had created a monster he was powerless to stop, that would inquire that the NTF was never meant to destroy the Vasudan, he mentions this many times in the monologues.

el hombre vicio...

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

  • Captain Oblivious
  • 212
  • Prevents attraction.
    • Wordpress.com Blog
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
Did the exploit the Terran-Vasudan prejudices to find a way to communicate with the Shivans then?
My blog | My Connection Speed

Quote: 16 September 2016 Friday, 2028hrs UTC+8, #hard-light
[20:28:44] <Hades> i want you guys to know that i'm using the stop font as my irc font
[20:28:46] <Hades> it is a bad time
[20:29:12] <Oddgrim-Work> Change the font to vasudan standard and then you'll have a bad time
[20:29:24] <Hades> http://i.imgur.com/N2f8qA4.png
[20:29:47] <z64555> change the font to vasudan comic sans, then you'll have a real bad time
[20:30:02] <Oddgrim-Work> Thats a terrible font
[20:30:06] <EvilBagel> comic headz

 

Offline Rodo

  • Custom tittle
  • 212
  • stargazer
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
Did the exploit the Terran-Vasudan prejudices to find a way to communicate with the Shivans then?


The fact that Bosch had it's own ideas about how a righteous crusade for the NTF was supposed to be doesn't mean that the NTF as a hole would actually embrace that idea.
You can't keep all your subordinates happy, you need to keep at least most of them that way....

If killing Vasudan was the only thing that was capable to keep the NTF working together then I would dare to say that Bosch was gonna fell awfull at the end
(as he did:
Quote
have I led my people to a desert only to die here?
see he was not even sure that the ETAK was gonna work.. then why risking it all??? I'll tell you why...he wanted a righteous finale for the NTF).

and I quote again
Quote
the method behind the madness
  (as for my own opinion... best quote EVER on FS universe) explains this point of view.
el hombre vicio...

 

Offline Blue Lion

  • Star Shatterer
  • Moderator
  • 210
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews

Err, no. According to the intel entry the rebellion grew to encompass Sirius, Regulus and Polaris within a few weeks. The way I see it, these three systems had been neglected by the Reconstruction era's "miraculous recovery" and the people in there were just bloody pissed off at the GTVA, the Vasudans, life, the universe and everything. When Bosch came along with his idea of Neo-Terra, all the angwy pepoe in the three systems saw it as an opportunity to make things better (ie. cause trouble). Thus, in a short space of time, lots and lots of people grabbed their weapons and ships and started shooting.

Except you don't see civilians fighting the GTVA. All I saw was military vs military. I saw no mention of suppressing civilian revolts or solving civilian problems. If a civilian backlash is what gave Bosch his get up and go for this, you'd think there would have been a mention of it somewhere. In the game however, civilians are almost completely removed, to the point we argue about what their roles were.


Quote
Well, I dunno. I don't think the NTF would have become very popular killing civilians, at least not at the beginning. Vasudan civilians would have been fair game, sure, but I don't think they'd just kill civilians they could potentially get sympathy out of.

I think there was something in BETAC they didn't like (possibly about rebellions or mutinies or something) and just ignored it completely. There is no way to know what part of BETAC they don't like.


 

Offline Blue Lion

  • Star Shatterer
  • Moderator
  • 210
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews


Spoiler:
There are fighters, bomber and warships sortied to fight the player, and that's weird. The NTF knows from the beginning that they're severely outnumbered so they'd be acquiring ships and spacecraft instead of attempting to destroy them.

Spending most of the time fighting incoming waves of spacecraft is not a good example of FREDding, IMO.
[/mobius]

That's why we have
Spoiler:
Mission 5 with the Kestrel being fought over. It would be extremely boring to have missions of NTF talking down GTVA ships. The basic assumption, and I know it is really explained well yet, is that that is almost all that's left. Out of the entire Sirius system, that's not a lot of ships that didn't go rebel.

As for why they sortie ships to take them out. These are GTVA pilots who aren't turning (you'll notice it never came up) and the NTF is still trying to keep this a secret. You and the other pilots have to be taken out to preserve that secrecy.

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • The Lightblue Ribbon
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
I think there was something in BETAC they didn't like (possibly about rebellions or mutinies or something) and just ignored it completely. There is no way to know what part of BETAC they don't like.

I remember Roemig citing the BETAC when he claimed that he was a prisoner of war with no need to spread vital info regarding his task in the nebula.

A wingman(woman) then says that she thought the rebels didn't reckognize BETAC.

I assume that the NTF didn't really want to treat prisoners in a good way.


That's why we have
Spoiler:
Mission 5 with the Kestrel being fought over. It would be extremely boring to have missions of NTF talking down GTVA ships. The basic assumption, and I know it is really explained well yet, is that that is almost all that's left. Out of the entire Sirius system, that's not a lot of ships that didn't go rebel.

As for why they sortie ships to take them out. These are GTVA pilots who aren't turning (you'll notice it never came up) and the NTF is still trying to keep this a secret. You and the other pilots have to be taken out to preserve that secrecy.

Spoiler:
That's just one mission. What should have been the fundament of the whole Demo has been limited to a single mission...there should have been more episodes like that.
[/mobius]

 

Offline Blue Lion

  • Star Shatterer
  • Moderator
  • 210
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
I remember Roemig citing the BETAC when he claimed that he was a prisoner of war with no need to spread vital info regarding his task in the nebula.

A wingman(woman) then says that she thought the rebels didn't reckognize BETAC.

I assume that the NTF didn't really want to treat prisoners in a good way.

I just thought that meant they wanted to hamstring the GTVA by BETAC while they don't have to be.



Quote
Spoiler:
That's just one mission. What should have been the fundament of the whole Demo has been limited to a single mission...there should have been more episodes like that.
[/mobius]

I didn't really want to release a 6 mission demo, but there is no real "ending mission" before that.

 

Offline Akalabeth Angel

  • 211
  • HLP: It is what it is.
    • Minecraft
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
Since this is a review thread I don't see a need for spoiler tags but I guess I'll use them anyway.


Overall it was pretty good. I was actually at a bit of a loss as to what was going on at the start since I didn't know jack about the campaign. Then I read the launcher blurb and thought "oh, so that's what this is. Anyway".

Spoiler:
Overall the missions were pretty good though it was fairly predictable who was bad and who was good.

The thing with the Sarnid jumping in and vaping the Mathis. Hmmn, that was probably the low point of the campaign in terms of fredding. Maybe this has been said before, but the player should have the chance to win a mission the first time. But the only real way to win that mission is to know what's already coming so in that way I think it's poorly design. Basically the Sarnid should have some sort of delay before it lets loose with the beams. The first time I played it I was still near the Kestrel when it warped in so by the time I even got over there the Mathis was almost toast.

The last mission has an error. Iota wing accepts player orders so technically I could just tell them to bugger off and not have to fight them.

Also the bit about Command saying "take out the convoy if you can" is a bit of a joke since they're on the other side of the battlefield and there's no real opportunity to get anywhere near them. But I guess that's Command for you.

It might've been better to give the NTF a little more character. The only time they really talk is when the Kestrel is under conflict. Not that they talk much in the campaign either, but in the start o the rebellion one might think they'd be trying to recruit new forces rather than pre-determining who is bad and who is good. Logically there'd be some idea based on the Captainship of the vessel, but one would think that some crews would be a little on the fence and might go either way.

Oh I think you spelt acquired wrong somewhere but that might be a different campaign. I can't remember. Think it was either debrief 2 or brief 3.

Anyway. It was a good couple of missions.

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
My main issue with AG1 was that it was far too formulaic. There was very little innovation, it was simply old ideas done again. They were done well, but they were still recycled ideas...

 

Offline Blue Lion

  • Star Shatterer
  • Moderator
  • 210
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
That's exactly what I was shooting for.

 

Offline SF-Junky

  • 29
  • Bread can mold, what can you do?
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
Since I finally managed to play the Demo I'd like to add a few notes. Let's start with the bad things:
- Several missions mainly consist of fighting off wave after wave of hostile fighters. That's okay in particular missions but see to it that it doesn't happen to often.
- There story doesn't begin very good imo. It looks like the pilots haven't yet heard about the NTF but already know that there is some sort of rebellion going on. If I recall the tech room entries right, Bosch first launched a coup d'etat against Polaris triggering a domino effect which caused Regulus and Sirius to fall to the NTF within weeks. So if this campaign is supposed to begin at the point Sirius is falling to the rebels everyone should already know about the NTF.
- If you don't have contact to you base destroyer, how exactly does your fighter get repaired and rearmed after every mission?

Good things:
- The missions where very well balanced in my eyes. The intro cutscene was superb!
- I stil liked the "wtf is going on?" - feeling at the beginning of the campaign.


All in all a good campaign so far. I'm looking forward to see the final release. :)

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
- There story doesn't begin very good imo. It looks like the pilots haven't yet heard about the NTF but already know that there is some sort of rebellion going on. If I recall the tech room entries right, Bosch first launched a coup d'etat against Polaris triggering a domino effect which caused Regulus and Sirius to fall to the NTF within weeks. So if this campaign is supposed to begin at the point Sirius is falling to the rebels everyone should already know about the NTF.
I didn't like the portrayal of the NTF's rise either. I imagined it as being far more spontaneous, like some kind of mass riot which quickly became more organized under Bosch's leadership.

 

Offline Rodo

  • Custom tittle
  • 212
  • stargazer
Re: Alcibades' Gamble Reviews
Thanks for the review, your points have been noted.

Also it's nice to know there's still some people out there playing this demo release ^^
el hombre vicio...