[SaltyWaffles]

Don't get me wrong, I know that there are difficulties in manning and utilizing defected warships against the faction they defected from, but by this point in the war, I'm kind of confused as to why the UEF hasn't at least sufficiently overcome those problems to use those ships in times of great need.

They're certainly desperate enough, and merely having them in reserve for the defense of Earth  would be a vast boon to the UEF's lines of defense.

As for the difficulties, well...

1) They've had quite some time to examine and learn the different tech, especially with full, experienced crews on-hand to explain things where needed. And they've certainly had time to train new crews in their operation, in addition to supplies and equipment needed for repairing/restocking/etc via the two Tev logistics ships in their possession.

2) Given how apocalyptic the Tev invasion has become, how dire the UEF's position is, and what will happen to them should the UEF suffer total defeat, I would imagine that some of the defectors would be willing to help crew the ships if need be, at least when it comes to Steele's big push on Earth.

3) Those ships couldn't be used for the Shambhala project (Anemoi-class ship aside), since they are flat-out warships that have already been produced and supplied, and how wasteful cannibalizing them would be.

4) Things are desperate enough that, even if they couldn't be used with proper effectiveness, ANY use you could get out of them would be worth it. And with the threat of total defeat imminent, there's no point in completely holding them back even longer. Keeping them as a surprise asset, sure; I can get that. But not even the Fedayeen seems to think such a thing is possible, let alone likely.

[QuakeIV]

I would have assumed they would mostly have dismantled them to analyze their technology.  I could be wrong, but I don't think they got their hands on redundant copies of any particular class of ship, until the anemois.  (which they seem to be using for serkret project)

[headdie]

Also Tev ships use several technologies that the UEF have little or no experience in like Meson and Beam, while 14th BG crews could be questioned about it we have no idea how the crews would react to it and without the right information like operating tolerances, usage procedures, emergency procedures, etc operating these techs would be very liable to explode in your face,

Also I think it's reasonable to assume that the computers onboard wont be entirely co-operative potentially needing a rebuild of the ships control systems from the ground up and/or extensive hacking of an unfamiliar computer architecture.

[General Battuta]

They're using them - in a number of ways, actually: not just strip down and analysis or hole card, but in that vital way that's at the heart of subspace chess: if I don't know where a threat is, I have to plan on it being everywhere, and if I don't know when it arrives, I have to be constantly vigilant.

[0rph3u5]

You are assuming that these ships and their crew integrated into the UEF forces ... they might as well still exist as an allied but seperate body to the UEF.

Moreso, you forgot that the UEF is not a monolithic block but a federation of three startes (Earth, Mars & Jupiter), determining command authority over the 14th BG ships might therefor be a political game in itself. Considering how the UEF leadership has acted so far, refraining from deploying the defected GTVA ships might be a move prevent a division in the UEF which in turn would be a weakness the GTVA could exploit.

EDIT: In a similar vein not deploying the defectors' ships might also retain other some diplomatic advantages in case the GTVA would come to the table at some point (of course that implies that the UEF and GTVA work with rules of engagement comperable to those of the Hauge Conventions - the GTVA only goes into Total War-mode after the capture of Jupiter, remember)

EDIT2: For clarity, according to the Hague Conventions, ships (including but not limited to warships) seized by foreign power are not be used for hosilites and have to returned as soon as the fighting is done (unless a peace settlement says otherwise)

[SaltyWaffles]

They're using them - in a number of ways, actually: not just strip down and analysis or hole card, but in that vital way that's at the heart of subspace chess: if I don't know where a threat is, I have to plan on it being everywhere, and if I don't know when it arrives, I have to be constantly vigilant.

So...it's just that they've stripped them down for analysis/parts/materials/whatever, but have done it so secretively that the Tevs have no idea they've done so? Does Steele actually think they could enter the field one day?

Thing is, the fleet-in-being principle begins to fall apart when the credibility of the threat plummets.

But what's more jarring is how even the Fedayeen seem to be under the impression that these ships will never see a battlefield ever again. No mention is made of them, no implication either; I would think that if a successful fleet-in-being threat existed for these ships, one of the Fedayeen would bring up the matter with Laporte at some point.

EDIT: Also, what does "hole card" mean?

Also Tev ships use several technologies that the UEF have little or no experience in like Meson and Beam, while 14th BG crews could be questioned about it we have no idea how the crews would react to it and without the right information like operating tolerances, usage procedures, emergency procedures, etc operating these techs would be very liable to explode in your face,

Also I think it's reasonable to assume that the computers onboard wont be entirely co-operative potentially needing a rebuild of the ships control systems from the ground up and/or extensive hacking of an unfamiliar computer architecture.

1) They've had plenty of time to become familiar with said technology to a sufficient degree. And they already have experts and technicians on hand (and have had them on hand the whole time). They'd had time to train new crews in this operation, as well.

2) Why wouldn't the onboard computers be cooperative? The original crews are available if need be, and can explain the operation of them, too. The UEF could also subvert the system if need be, given sufficient time. Especially when you factor in the holes in the programming via HoL/Vasudan sabotage, and the Fedayeen's access to the specific viruses that trigger/utilize them. And if the UEF couldn't crack it, the Fedayeen certainly could, and quickly.

[Damage]

That's a poker reference--the card you're not trading away, or showing to the other players.  The one that's going to make your winning hand--OR the card you're bluffing with.


Let's keep in mind, the defected ships are only a cruiser, a corvette, and a logistics ship.  (As well as an unknown number of fighters and personnel.)  That's not a huge physical threat under most circumstances; but the possibilities for infiltration or espionage...

[SaltyWaffles]

That's a poker reference--the card you're not trading away, or showing to the other players.  The one that's going to make your winning hand--OR the card you're bluffing with.


Let's keep in mind, the defected ships are only a cruiser, a corvette, and a logistics ship.  (As well as an unknown number of fighters and personnel.)  That's not a huge physical threat under most circumstances; but the possibilities for infiltration or espionage...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Temeraire also defect? A Titan-class destroyer is a pretty big asset to have, even if you didn't use its carrier-capability at all.

Plus, the sheer irony of another Titan-class destroyer everyone thought was out of the picture suddenly jumping in at just the right time to destroy a bunch of Tev ships with its beam cannons alone is just too good to pass up.

EDIT: Wait, you're right; the admiral on board the Temeraire is known to be in GTVA space during WiH. My bad. Still, the potential irony would have been hilarious.

EDIT2: For clarity, according to the Hague Conventions, ships (including but not limited to warships) seized by foreign power are not be used for hosilites and have to returned as soon as the fighting is done (unless a peace settlement says otherwise)

This doesn't apply to ships that defect to other nations of their own volition, even aside from the fact that the Hague Conventions probably don't apply here. Even if they did, the Tevs LONG since thew them out the window in this war.

[crizza]

The Temeraire did not defect: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Journey's_End

[0rph3u5]

This doesn't apply to ships that defect to other nations of their own volition, even aside from the fact that the Hague Conventions probably don't apply here. Even if they did, the Tevs LONG since thew them out the window in this war.

The Hague Conventions were just an easy referrence point, considering the wider term of ius in bello (lat. "the law in war"/"the law for wartime") isn't known to most people outside circles dealing with international law

Back to WiH, the GTVA only suspends their own ius in bello (parts of the BETAC) during WiH Act I, right around the time command passes to Steele (who as seen in The Blade Itself isn't really a fan of minimizing collateral damage)

[rubixcube]

The Temeraire did not defect: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Journey's_End

LOL, if she had, the GTVA probably would not have invaded sol.

[SaltyWaffles]

This doesn't apply to ships that defect to other nations of their own volition, even aside from the fact that the Hague Conventions probably don't apply here. Even if they did, the Tevs LONG since thew them out the window in this war.

The Hague Conventions were just an easy referrence point, considering the wider term of ius in bello (lat. "the law in war"/"the law for wartime") isn't known to most people outside circles dealing with international law

Back to WiH, the GTVA only suspends their own ius in bello (parts of the BETAC) during WiH Act I, right around the time command passes to Steele (who as seen in The Blade Itself isn't really a fan of minimizing collateral damage)

I know. But as I said, none of that applies to cases where a ship (and its crew) willingly defects to another nation of its own volition.

[0rph3u5]

But as I said, none of that applies to cases where a ship (and its crew) willingly defects to another nation of its own volition.

I had to look it up but the alliegance of the crew and the ownership of their weapons (which includes aircraft and ships) are different things in practice of international law. If troops defect their weapons are legally seized on the moment of defection, but remain in strictly legal terms property of the state that provided them. Things get even more complicated if the defectors are not integrated into the organisation of the forces of the state they defect to because for the a short moment they void the legal status as soldiers (because they stopped being in a command structure which is a basis for their legal accountability and in turn their legal status as "soliders").

[Luis Dias]

In a full blown war, these things get thrown away pretty quickly. Everyone is a war criminal.

[0rph3u5]

Globally it's a "I don't so you don't"-situation, that why in recent years control of information (or the fabrication of it) was become so important in recent conflicts - because the one who did it first is always the one responsible for the escalation, there exculpating the all other parties for their responses. Of course it only works to its fullest when there is a symetry of ability which there rarely is (but that both the letter of the law and application of law are not in sync with reality is not news.)

As for WiH, you have to remember to things about the enactment of the Total War status by the GTVA:

1) The UEF, in general not counting the Fedayeen, works on a ideology which promotes humanism and sustainability. As such they would, again not counting the Fedayeen, not officially escalate a conflict they think they could contain through rational behavior (which establishing and attempting to follow a code of laws based on self-interest is).

2) The GTVA is in a situation where the UEF has no means of relatiation in the same manner as the GTVA inflicts on them. For every nuke Tev ships drop on Luna, there is no UEF ship that could do the same in say Delta Seprentis.