Author Topic: And the Dutch flag is set ablaze! Spares me the effort...  (Read 10263 times)

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Offline Mefustae

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Re: And the Dutch flag is set ablaze! Spares me the effort...
I can understand what you are saying, and why you are saying it, based on the information you have been exposed to, I would believe the same thing. Its ok, keep to your stereo types, believe what you are told, leave your head in the sand, never risk anything, and you will have a long happy life. Then sit back in your comfy chair, criticize what you dont understand, and mock what you will be to afraid to ever do.
You... You do realise you're describing yourself and people like you, right? :wtf:

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: And the Dutch flag is set ablaze!
Thing is, you can't stop people screaming that they want you to die by killing them. Well, actually, Yes, you can, but at the end of the day you may well end up doing the same thing they are. Look at the 'Nuke 'em' comments on here, yes, I know they are in jest and no-one is seriously suggesting we Nuke the Middle East, or at least, I hope not, but they hear what the west has 'done' and start screaming 'Burn them! Kill Them!'. Upon hearing this, the West is so annoyed by these comments that they start screaming 'Judgemental Bastards! Wanting us dead? Burn them! Kill Them!'....

I think the proper response to them screaming over offensive cartoons is to make even more offensive cartoons. Something so tasteless, vulgar, and depraved that they have strokes just looking at it.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: And the Dutch flag is set ablaze! Spares me the effort...
I can understand what you are saying, and why you are saying it, based on the information you have been exposed to, I would believe the same thing. Its ok, keep to your stereo types, believe what you are told, leave your head in the sand, never risk anything, and you will have a long happy life. Then sit back in your comfy chair, criticize what you dont understand, and mock what you will be to afraid to ever do.

Now there's a poorly conceived attempt to bow out of a discussion with some shred of credibility left without actually adressing the numerous valid and well-thought-out points within it if I've ever seen one.

Too bad no one here is going to let you get away with it.

You failed to address a single point raised in the last two pages (3 and 4) of this discussion.

By the way... as for the bit about being exposed to information, stereotypes, blah blah... I work in law enforcement, specifically in the area of border security.  I daresay I probably have a pretty decent grasp of legislative change and terrorist threats to national security.  And everything I've seen out of you in this thread so far says you're talking straight out of your ass and trying to argue your poorly-conceived and ill-informed opinion as the state of the world.

Like I said... no one here is going to let you get away with it.

You can talk about understanding all you like but until you can demonstrate a decently nuanced rebuttal to the numerous points thus far raised by several people (Shade, karajorma, Flipside, myself, etc) it's pretty clear that you're the one without it.

Happy researching.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline Shade

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Re: And the Dutch flag is set ablaze! Spares me the effort...
Quote
I can understand what you are saying, and why you are saying it, based on the information you have been exposed to, I would believe the same thing. Its ok, keep to your stereo types, believe what you are told, leave your head in the sand, never risk anything, and you will have a long happy life. Then sit back in your comfy chair, criticize what you dont understand, and mock what you will be to afraid to ever do.
Heh, such a response to an attempt at a bit of levity, yet not a word addressing any of the many points that have been brought up. Why am I not surprised? Anyway...

The thing about being exposed to information as opposed to probaganda is that you tend to actually have a clue what's going on. As for believing everything I'm told... are you sure you weren't looking in a mirror when you posted that? I'm the one being sceptical here, after all, while you're plugging the government line. As for the rest, nice try, but really, if I were truely the one who was afraid here, I wouldn't be the one calling bull****. You're the one acting scared, defending policies that are taking away the freedom of a great people bit by bit in the name of security. Me? If I had to choose between my freedom and my safety, I'd pick my freedom any day.

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"Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh ****ing great. 2200 references to entry->index and no idea which is the one that ****ed up" - Karajorma
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Re: And the Dutch flag is set ablaze! Spares me the effort...
hmmm...

lets see, I didnt use to think we were going to accomplish anything in Iraq, and it was a mistake to go there, then I had some experiences that changed my point of view, nothing I can say will make you believe the way I do.
 

Shade,
During every war EVER, freedoms have been sacrificed, even when the goal of the war is freedom. However you dont believe there is a war, so you will not accept my argument as valid. Allow me to introduce myself....
-I am a US Soldier, fighting the war in Iraq. You have not been here, how would you know if there was one or not?



...
By the way... as for the bit about being exposed to information, stereotypes, blah blah... I work in law enforcement, specifically in the area of border security.  I daresay I probably have a pretty decent grasp of legislative change and terrorist threats to national security. 
....


I see... thank you, for protecting our border.
I hope that you will consider my response to Shade as one valid response over the last 2 pages.


You... You do realise you're describing yourself and people like you, right? :wtf:

Meh, i guess some people see it that way.
Fat people are harder to kidnap :ha:

 

Offline Shade

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Re: And the Dutch flag is set ablaze! Spares me the effort...
Quote
During every war EVER, freedoms have been sacrificed, even when the goal of the war is freedom. However you dont believe there is a war, so you will not accept my argument as valid.
You're misunderstanding. There certainly was a war in Iraq and still is one in Afghanistan. But they're not the War on Terror, and neither of them have had any bearing on US security since the Taleban were ousted from power and Bin Laden could no longer hide under their protection, and indeed the war in Iraq never did - No WMDs and no terrorist connections there before the war, remember?

It's the claim that the US is at constant war because terrorists threaten you at every corner I take issue with, because that is simply not true. And it's the general acceptance of a continuing deterioration of freedoms in the name of a threat that is blown up out of all proportion that I'm fighting here, because the only way a terrorist can 'win', the only way a terrorist can truely hurt a society, is by making that society hurt itself. And believe me, I do not want them to win.

Quote
I am a US Soldier, fighting the war in Iraq. You have not been here, how would you know if there was one or not?
I'd guessed as much, actually, and it doesn't change my stance. As for the 'war'? I know there's no war because there was one and it ended. Your president said so, and he *is* the commander in chief. What's there now is not a war, because you've already won the war. The Iraqi government is on your side. You're not fighting soldiers, or even a major resistance movement, but a combination of people who have gone there simply because it's the easiest place to kill americans, and a bunch of people who want more power/more influence/to be left the hell alone. That doesn't mean you aren't fighting, and it doesn't mean what you're doing isn't important (it's actually more important than fighting a war would be, because you're trying to help people get a chance for a real life instead of simply being out to kill the enemy) it just means it's not a war you're fighting. And that certainly doesn't mean it doesn't feel like one when you're there.

Also, believe it or not, I think the US is doing the right thing to stay there. It's a mess there and it needs to be cleaned up, the people helped and the society rebuilt, so I think you're doing the right thing. But you invaded for the wrong reasons, lied to your friends and allies and tried to bully those who wouldn't get in line. If Bush had come out and said "It's time to help the people of Iraq, and correct our mistake from the first gulf war in leaving Saddam in control. We plan on going in there, taking him out, and giving the Iraqi people the freedom they've been denied for so long", I'd have been cheering him along. But he didn't.

Instead he used manufactured reasons to justify an unprovoked attack, completely ruined the international reputation of both the US government and its intelligence agencies (though I suspect the CIA rather likes being thought of as incompetent. It can only help, especially as they're actually not), and launched an ill-prepared operation that at least initially made things far worse for the Iraqi people than they were under Saddam. The only thing he didn't do to make things worse was pull out once it turned out how big a mess it was, and a good thing too or Iraq would easily have become what it was not before the war: A free haven for terrorists and anyone with designs on hurting Americans.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 01:56:33 pm by Shade »
Report FS_Open bugs with Mantis  |  Find the latest FS_Open builds Here  |  Interested in FRED? Check out the Wiki's FRED Portal | Diaspora: Website / Forums
"Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh ****ing great. 2200 references to entry->index and no idea which is the one that ****ed up" - Karajorma
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct." - Niels Bohr
<Cobra|> You play this mission too intelligently.

 
Re: And the Dutch flag is set ablaze! Spares me the effort...
[Slams head against desk, looks at screen, slams head against desk harder]

 :wtf:

You are **** right it "feels like" a war. Its what is called "a-symmetrical warfare" or in the old terms a "gorilla war", where one force blends in with or replaces the civilian population of an area, and uses the guise to conduct attacks against a larger military force when they have an advantage or the risk of casualties is low.
No declaration has to be made for there to be a war, and no declaration made by only one side ends a war. By your reasoning we are still at war with North Korea, just because nobody never said the Korean War was over.
Fat people are harder to kidnap :ha:

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: And the Dutch flag is set ablaze! Spares me the effort...
And thus it isn't a War any more, at best it's a Policing situation that was bought about by the mismanagement of a War.

Personally, I find it hard to support any War that is designed to be a Political Tool, such as the Suez Canal, Egypt, Vietnam or Iraq. History has proved time and time again that Wars fought for the sake of political/financial expediency are usually doomed to a sticky end.

A War, to me, is what is left when there is a direct and real threat. There's been far too many Wars fought in the last 50 years that have had nothing to do with threat. Indeed, this was was started by saying there was a direct and real threat to our homelands, and yet the threat to my home has been far greater since the invasion than before it.

Afghanistan was a necessary act to help stop terrorism, Iraq went and bought it back multiplied by a factor of ten.

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: And the Dutch flag is set ablaze! Spares me the effort...
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

Hard Light Productions:
"...this conversation is pointlessly confrontational."

 

Offline Shade

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Re: And the Dutch flag is set ablaze! Spares me the effort...
Quote
You are **** right it "feels like" a war. Its what is called "a-symmetrical warfare" or in the old terms a "gorilla war", where one force blends in with or replaces the civilian population of an area, and uses the guise to conduct attacks against a larger military force when they have an advantage or the risk of casualties is low.
Ah yes, those. So you recognize that your enemies are lawful combatants then? Keep in mind that participants in guerrilla warfare are covered by the geneva conventions. If you're willing to take that leap, and the US starts treating everyone according to the laws of war, I'm certainly prepared to consider it one. However, you still need to explain how a conflict that's kept alive by the enemy's ability to blend in with or replace the civilian population in Iraq warrants the loss of personal freedoms for the american people that is currently in progress. And given that this is the issue that the thread has focused on lately, the issue that we've been at odds over for the last page and a half, that's a pretty big omission on your part.

Quote
No declaration has to be made for there to be a war, and no declaration made by only one side ends a war.
A declaration by one side is enough when the other side no longer exists, which is most certainly the case with Saddam's regime.

Quote
By your reasoning we are still at war with North Korea, just because nobody never said the Korean War was over.
Indeed you are. There's a very good reason why the Korean DMZ is the most heavily mined, armed and guarded border on Earth, and why soldiers from both sides (including some american soldiers, in case you didn't know) are still getting killed in skirmishes there after the armistice took effect.
Report FS_Open bugs with Mantis  |  Find the latest FS_Open builds Here  |  Interested in FRED? Check out the Wiki's FRED Portal | Diaspora: Website / Forums
"Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh ****ing great. 2200 references to entry->index and no idea which is the one that ****ed up" - Karajorma
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct." - Niels Bohr
<Cobra|> You play this mission too intelligently.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: And the Dutch flag is set ablaze! Spares me the effort...
Quote
By your reasoning we are still at war with North Korea, just because nobody never said the Korean War was over.
Indeed you are. There's a very good reason why the Korean DMZ is the most heavily mined, armed and guarded border on Earth, and why soldiers from both sides (including some american soldiers, in case you didn't know) are still getting killed in skirmishes there after the armistice took effect.
[/quote]

Heh.  He made me chuckle there too.

"Armistice" describes a cease-fire, FL.  It is not a peace accord, nor does it end a state of warfare.
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