[Macielos]

You can. A million people sounds like a lot, but the EU has 550 million citizens. It's a matter of redistribution. The Netherlands currently has 1,8 million people that have non-western origins. The largest problem we have is Geert Wilders.

How we distribute them throughout Europe is one thing. The problem is that the immigrants are not eager to be "redistributed". They focus on the most generous welfare states like Germany and Sweden. If you force a group of them to settle e.g. in Poland, most of them would soon depart to Germany.

Second thing is how we treat them. They are mostly placed in camps where they live among their brethren and therefore feel no need to assimilate. As they receive social benefits, they don't need to work either. They're just sitting there, in the camps, feeling bored. It's not surprising some of them became thieves and assaulters. Europe has completely no idea what to do with such masses of people.

What is more, police and authorities are given instructions to tolerate visitors' assaults on women and other violations of law. If you send them a signal "we won't punish you", then how could you expect them to change?

I wouldn't so eagerly claim Europe's greatest problem are far-right anti-migrant parties. They are a symptom of a problem. They show something's wrong with Europe and people see it, even if they do not choose best ways to handle the problem.

[Grizzly]

You can. A million people sounds like a lot, but the EU has 550 million citizens. It's a matter of redistribution. The Netherlands currently has 1,8 million people that have non-western origins. The largest problem we have is Geert Wilders.

How we distribute them throughout Europe is one thing. The problem is that the immigrants are not eager to be "redistributed". They focus on the most generous welfare states like Germany and Sweden. If you force a group of them to settle e.g. in Poland, most of them would soon depart to Germany.

Which is why, as MP-Ryan already mentioned, we need to handle this at a federal level.

Second thing is how we treat them. They are mostly placed in camps where they live among their brethren and therefore feel no need to assimilate. As they receive social benefits, they don't need to work either.

I am not sure how it is over at you, but refugees that are placed in dutch detention camps do not recieve benefits. To recieve social benefits you have to be a dutch citizen, and the refugees that are placed are not: They are waiting for the completion of the process that will indicate if they get a shot at becoming a dutch citizen or not. That this is a process that can take years is a problem. A similar and related problem is the process that refugees in The Netherlands have to go once their refugee status has been denied, which takes so long that people have been driven to suicide over it.

What is more, police and authorities are given instructions to tolerate visitors' assaults on women and other violations of law. If you send them a signal "we won't punish you", then how could you expect them to change?

Where did this happen?

[qwadtep]

Where did this happen?

The most oft-cited source is an investigation by Bild (which, being a tabloid, should be taken with a grain of salt). But given Germany's aggressive crackdown on opposition viewpoints, such as pressuring Facebook and Twitter to delete anti-immigration sentiment as "hate speech" and politicians threatening to boycott election debates that included AfD, it wouldn't be a surprise. Something like the Sharia Police incident would at least see a slap on the wrist for harassment in most first-world countries. I even had an article about new state TV guidelines on what words could and could not be used for migrants, migrants being in the latter category.

[Dragon]

Looks like Germany, in its quest for political correctness, crossed the line into outright oppressiveness. Though it's not like they weren't close already, what with their obsession with suppressing anything remotely related to Nazis (at times even in actual, historical portrayals of them!). Ironically, I think this is in a large part responsible for the current rise of radicalism. Radicals who have guts to shout "Down with political correctness!" get a positive response simply because they stand up to something that's been irritating everyone, but was previously socially unacceptable to challenge (this was also quoted as the reason why Trump gets so much applause).

IMO, political correctness is essentially sweeping the underlying problems under the rug. Racism, for example, isn't gone when people don't use racial slurs. It's gone when they use them in jokes and they're understood as being just a joke. Until it's actually become nothing but a joke, you can't really say the serious version is dealt with. Same with every other issue people have been sweeping under the rug. "Hate speech" needs to be countered much like creationism or other absurd beliefs are fought. Rational arguments, satire or simply ignoring the speaker as an idiot not worthy of attention (the latter only works if the speaker is in a tiny minority). If you stop people from saying something in public, they'll simply say it in private. Germany seems to be having precisely this problem.

Though even given all that, I wouldn't put much stock in Bild. It might have very well just made the aforementioned incident up. Anti-immigrant stuff is known to sell well these days.

[The E]

Looks like Germany, in its quest for political correctness, crossed the line into outright oppressiveness. Though it's not like they weren't close already, what with their obsession with suppressing anything remotely related to Nazis (at times even in actual, historical portrayals of them!). Ironically, I think this is in a large part responsible for the current rise of radicalism. Radicals who have guts to shout "Down with political correctness!" get a positive response simply because they stand up to something that's been irritating everyone, but was previously socially unacceptable to challenge (this was also quoted as the reason why Trump gets so much applause).

You.... really have no idea about german politics. If you think we were suppressing "anything remotely related to Nazis", I invite you to check out the curriculum for history lessons starting in grade 7, I think?
(It's a historical fact that the treatment of WW2 in GDR schools is part of the reason why neonazis are much more common in former GDR states than they are in the west)

IMO, political correctness is essentially sweeping the underlying problems under the rug. Racism, for example, isn't gone when people don't use racial slurs. It's gone when they use them in jokes and they're understood as being just a joke.

Oh, I get it! Just like sexism is no longer a problem because we joke about women drivers all the time! (You are very wrong)

Until it's actually become nothing but a joke, you can't really say the serious version is dealt with.

One of the highest grossing comedies in german cinema last year, with over 2.4 million viewers (which is about the same as the first Avengers movie, to put it in perspective) was "Er ist wieder da", a film in which Adolf Hitler suddenly appears in modern-day Germany.
The fact that jokes about Nazis have become mainstream should tell you something.

Same with every other issue people have been sweeping under the rug. "Hate speech" needs to be countered much like creationism or other absurd beliefs are fought. Rational arguments, satire or simply ignoring the speaker as an idiot not worthy of attention (the latter only works if the speaker is in a tiny minority). If you stop people from saying something in public, they'll simply say it in private. Germany seems to be having precisely this problem.

I am not going to say I'm in favour of what the government is trying to do regarding facebook and net censorship, but I will point out that as long as these laws are on the books, the government is bound to enforce them.

Though even given all that, I wouldn't put much stock in Bild. It might have very well just made the aforementioned incident up. Anti-immigrant stuff is known to sell well these days.

Bild lies. Always.

[Scotty]

I've split the feminism discussion into a topic a bit more clearly titled.  Feel free to continue discussing immigration and integration here.

[Grizzly]

The UK's policy of sending people who earn less then 35,000 pounds home is hitting soon, the Guardian has a piece on it

So, fully knowing that there are some people in this thread who are in favour of laws like these, I do have to ask: Is this really what you want?

[666maslo666]

The UK's policy of sending people who earn less then 35,000 pounds home is hitting soon, the Guardian has a piece on it

So, fully knowing that there are some people in this thread who are in favour of laws like these, I do have to ask: Is this really what you want?

As I said before, I believe 35,000 is too high a limit, considering that average wage in the UK is only around 26,000. If skilled people such as junior engineers have problems reaching the threshold, then it is time to lower it, IMHO.

But other than that, it is a good policy in principle. UK must not become a dumping ground open for unproductive people to settle in at will, permanently. Some kind of a salary limit for immigrants certainly makes a lot of sense to keep GDP per capita high and poverty among immigrant populations low. So I am in favor of laws like these, just not this particular number.

[The E]

If you're drawing a salary, then by definition you are not "unproductive".

[Grizzly]

If you're drawing a salary, then by definition you are not "unproductive".

Indeed: The policy only applies to people who have a tier 2 visa who want to stay in the UK longer: Those people have already been working in the UK for several years.

To get a tier 2 visa, you must have been offered a job that pays £20,800. After 5 years of working in the UK, you can then request a "Live in the UK indefinitely" license (otherwise you only have another year left). This new rule, which only applies to the tier 2 visa, ensures that you can only get a 'live in the UK indefinitely' license if your current job pays atleast £35,000.

This ruling only affects productive workers. It's explained at the bottom of the article. Heck it's explained by the entire article.

[666maslo666]

If you're drawing a salary, then by definition you are not "unproductive".

Relatively unproductive compared to people with higher salary. It is important to ensure that immigrants arent poorer than the natives, both from economic standpoint, but also for their easier integration. The only question is where exactly to put the cut-off. 35,000 seems too high to me..

[Mikes]

You can. A million people sounds like a lot, but the EU has 550 million citizens. It's a matter of redistribution. The Netherlands currently has 1,8 million people that have non-western origins. The largest problem we have is Geert Wilders.

How we distribute them throughout Europe is one thing. The problem is that the immigrants are not eager to be "redistributed". They focus on the most generous welfare states like Germany and Sweden. If you force a group of them to settle e.g. in Poland, most of them would soon depart to Germany.

Which is why, as MP-Ryan already mentioned, we need to handle this at a federal level.

Second thing is how we treat them. They are mostly placed in camps where they live among their brethren and therefore feel no need to assimilate. As they receive social benefits, they don't need to work either.

I am not sure how it is over at you, but refugees that are placed in dutch detention camps do not recieve benefits. To recieve social benefits you have to be a dutch citizen, and the refugees that are placed are not: They are waiting for the completion of the process that will indicate if they get a shot at becoming a dutch citizen or not. That this is a process that can take years is a problem. A similar and related problem is the process that refugees in The Netherlands have to go once their refugee status has been denied, which takes so long that people have been driven to suicide over it.

What is more, police and authorities are given instructions to tolerate visitors' assaults on women and other violations of law. If you send them a signal "we won't punish you", then how could you expect them to change?

Where did this happen?

Oh just about pretty much in all the larger cities that have districts in the hand of large arabic families, Berlin Neu-Köln probably being the most prominent example. To be fair, catching people giving actual instructions may be rather diffcult, but there is definitely a huge willingness to self censor and give people with immigrant backgrounds huge leeway in order to avoid being called a Nazi. If this willingness is a case of common sense and self protection or if it's an actual order from a superior is a rather moot point however imho. The effect is pretty much the same ...

In addition to molesting of women and aggressive pickpocketing of anybody else in certain districts of larger cities ...

You have cases like a father raping his daughter and being set free by the German justice system because persecuting the case would mean the victim would be revealed as "dishonored" to her entire family and hence become the victim of a "honor killing" before long.

You have countless cases of socalled "justices of the peace" applying Scharia Law in cases where both parties are Muslim and once and agreement is reached all the people involved suddenly forgot what happened in front of the German judge.

You have reported cases of the larger families with criminal inclintion deliberately "importing" 12-13 year old children from abroad in order to use them for criminal activities before they turn 14 and can effectively persecuted by adult law.

If you want to catch up on those issues then "Das Ende der Gedult" by the Neu-Köln judge "Kirsten Heisig" would be a good start .... and keep in mind those cases i named above are all already 5 year old ... but every single one of them a testament of utterly failed integration of people adhering to hardline Muslimic culture.

Heck ... if you check out Tanja Kambouri's "Deutschland im Blaulicht" it paints a pretty grim picture of the treatment of female police officers on duty. Starting with utter disrespect and gratuitous power games going up to actual assault.

Then you have the whole mess with Cologne this year that made it so obvious how police and media tip toed around the issue of immigrant crime, everyone being oh so afraid that no one call  them Nazi for suggesting not everything is "just great" with all those people coming in. Well, that mess at least was too big to not keep talking about it. But the local media is still full of smaller cases of sexual assault and petty theft that isn't even persecuted anymore simply because there is so much of it and there are no consequences that would deter the perpetrators.

Now don't take me wrong ... right extrimism and the violence it causes is a huge problem. But it is only one problem of two. Failed integration, unwillingness to integrate and crime rate amongst immigrants and refugees, especially amongst those with arabic muslimic/patriarchalic back ground is the just as big of a problem if not bigger and if that wasn't bad enough.... the failure to deal with the later problem, no wait ... the absolute unwillingness to even properly address it to the point of aggressively defaming anyone who even mentions immigrant crime over the last year(s), is naturally making the former problem of right extremism even worse as well.

Or in other words: The politic landscape in Germany isn't really a total clusterf*** right now because of the "immigration crisis" ... rather it is a total clusterf*** because of years of failed integration policy of pretty much all the major parties (Reds, Blacks and Greens just alike, if in different ways) and an exaggerated sense of political correctness resulted in attacks on anyone who suggested there even is a problem. (and again, that goes for the last years, not just the immediate crisis.)

What the current influx of refugees did however, was pretty much make it obvious just how badly integration policy is working. Or rather, and yes as sad as it is that kinda is the whole issue: How bad integration is working with people with arabic/muslimic backgrounds. There are no integration problems with Italians, Greeks, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese or whoever else. There is however a huge issue with people of the Muslimic inclination, or rather, to be more precise, with people of a conservative/literal Muslimic inclination, up the point where several of the Muslims who live in Germany for years already and are well integrated are shaking their head in disbelief at how politicians and the justice system are dragging their feet.

(And yes ... there are also cases of critical/moderate and well integrated Muslims being attacked by German Media as "Muslim haters" or "Islamophobes" just because they actually addressed the violent and mysogynistic tendencies of Muslims who follow a more conservative/archaic interpretation of Islam and wanted to discuss solutions - at the same time the same critical Muslims receive death threaths from said Muslims of a more archaic inclination - would be hilarious if it wouldn't be so serious and also showcase how FUBARED the entire public discussion of the matter is.)

As mentioned above, Kirsten Heisig's book would be a good starting point if you want to read up on what I addressed in this post.

[The E]

You have cases like a father raping his daughter and being set free by the German justice system because persecuting the case would mean the victim would be revealed as "dishonored" to her entire family and hence become the victim of a "honor killing" before long.

Citation needed.

You have countless cases of socalled "justices of the peace" applying Scharia Law in cases where both parties are Muslim and once and agreement is reached all the people involved suddenly forgot what happened in front of the German judge.

Citation needed again (especially about the "countless" part).

You have reported cases of the larger families with criminal inclintion deliberately "importing" 12-13 year old children from abroad in order to use them for criminal activities before they turn 14 and can effectively persecuted by adult law.

Citation ****ing needed (As in, please produce statistics that show this to be a common issue; Just because it's being reported doesn't mean it's actually a thing)

If you want to catch up on those issues then "Das Ende der Gedult" by the Neu-Köln judge "Kirsten Heisig" would be a good start .... and keep in mind those cases i named above are all already 5 year old ... but every single one of them a testament of utterly failed integration of people adhering to hardline Muslimic culture.

A book which has been criticized as making islam a much greater issue than economic circumstances. It's not a cut-and-dried issue, and Heisig is one voice among many on this issue.

Heck ... if you check out Tanja Kambouri's "Deutschland im Blaulicht" it paints a pretty grim picture of the treatment of female police officers on duty. Starting with utter disrespect and gratuitous power games going up to actual assault.

Members of patriarchal cultures have difficulty dealing with women in positions of authority, news at eleven. Look, I am not going to say that this is acceptable or anything, but it's also not just a problem with the muslim community.

Then you have the whole mess with Cologne this year that made it so obvious how police and media tip toed around the issue of immigrant crime, everyone being oh so afraid that no one call  them Nazi for suggesting not everything is "just great" with all those people coming in. Well, that mess at least was too big to not keep talking about it. But the local media is still full of smaller cases of sexual assault and petty theft that isn't even persecuted anymore simply because there is so much of it and there are no consequences that would deter the perpetrators.

And we all know that media reporting paints an accurate picture of how dire the crime situation in Germany is.

(In case you do not know: It doesn't.)

Now don't take me wrong ... right extrimism and the violence it causes is a huge problem. But it is only one problem of two. Failed integration, unwillingness to integrate and crime rate amongst immigrants and refugees, especially amongst those with arabic muslimic/patriarchalic back ground is the just as big of a problem if not bigger and if that wasn't bad enough.... the failure to deal with the later problem, no wait ... the absolute unwillingness to even properly address it to the point of aggressively defaming anyone who even mentions immigrant crime over the last year(s), is naturally making the former problem of right extremism even worse as well.

Because it's not as big a problem as Bild, Pegida and AfD would want you to believe. Not saying that there aren't any issues, but they're not as common as you seem to believe.

Or in other words: The politic landscape in Germany isn't really a total clusterf*** right now because of the "immigration crisis" ... rather it is a total clusterf*** because of years of failed integration policy of pretty much all the major parties (Reds, Blacks and Greens just alike, if in different ways) and an exaggerated sense of political correctness resulted in attacks on anyone who suggested there even is a problem. (and again, that goes for the last years, not just the immediate crisis.)

What the current influx of refugees did however, was pretty much make it obvious just how badly integration policy is working. Or rather, and yes as sad as it is that kinda is the whole issue: How bad integration is working with people with arabic/muslimic backgrounds. There are no integration problems with Italians, Greeks, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese or whoever else.

Strange how different economic circumstances can influence behaviour, isn't it.

There is however a huge issue with people of the Muslimic inclination, or rather, to be more precise, with people of a conservative/literal Muslimic inclination, up the point where several of the Muslims who live in Germany for years already and are well integrated are shaking their head in disbelief at how politicians and the justice system are dragging their feet.

You make it sound as if the majority of muslims are "problematic", something you damn well know is not the ****ing case.

[The E]

You have countless cases of socalled "justices of the peace" applying Scharia Law in cases where both parties are Muslim and once and agreement is reached all the people involved suddenly forgot what happened in front of the German judge.

Citation needed again (especially about the "countless" part).

I know what you are referring to here: There were a couple of publicized cases where civil lawsuits were decided based on the judges' interpretation of islamic law. In particular, cases where marriages between muslims fell apart; in these cases, islamic law was considered to be the basis of the marriage agreements.
While unusual for germans, this is not the dreaded "Sharia Law" you're afraid of, and all the decisions handed out this way are legal under the BGB (Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch, civil law).

[Mikes]

You have countless cases of socalled "justices of the peace" applying Scharia Law in cases where both parties are Muslim and once and agreement is reached all the people involved suddenly forgot what happened in front of the German judge.

Citation needed again (especially about the "countless" part).

I know what you are referring to here: There were a couple of publicized cases where civil lawsuits were decided based on the judges' interpretation of islamic law. In particular, cases where marriages between muslims fell apart; in these cases, islamic law was considered to be the basis of the marriage agreements.
While unusual for germans, this is not the dreaded "Sharia Law" you're afraid of, and all the decisions handed out this way are legal under the BGB (Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch, civil law).

Actually you don't.

Also, i gave you my source: http://www.amazon.de/Geduld-Konsequent-gegen-jugendliche-Gewaltt%C3%A4ter/dp/3451302047/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1457831459&sr=8-1&keywords=das+ende+der+gedult

Shall I make it bold or something? Cases mentioned were directly out of the book.

And yes of course it was critizised, ... as EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE was critizised who mentioned the issue before Cologne.
The funny part is ... she hardly singles out Muslims, but rather lays the finger at several sore spots with youth criminality where politics have absolutely failed.
Crime committed by youths with Muslim background were only remarkable in that there was so much more of it, especially where violence is concerned, than all of the other ethnicies combined.
... it was kinda hard to argue away what she wrote even 5 years ago. The crime statistics she does quote in her book kinda tell the story all on their own.

However, maybe go ahead and read it and make up your own mind. /shrugs.


http://www.amazon.de/Richter-ohne-Gesetz-Paralleljustiz-Rechtsstaat/dp/3548374808/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1457831765&sr=8-2&keywords=scharia+deutschland kinda tells a similar story, but with the focus on applied Scharia law in Germany.
Written by a jurist and former anchor of the Panorama Magazine on ARD: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Wagner_%28Journalist%29 And to answer you question ... Wagner critizises specifically how Scharia law plays a greater and greater role in cases where violence amongst Muslims, domestic violence, sexual assault & rape and even honor killings are concerned. You see ... once a justice of peace dealt with an issue the issue is considered dealt with by the "community in question" ...  witnesses will suddenly have a case of Amnesia in front of the German judge ... and if they don't the community will regularly excert pressure and threaths, even death threaths until they do.

Effectively you have murder cases where instead of a trial and a jail sentence you have one family paying blood money to the other, case closed due to lack of evidence / witness amnesia. And in case you didn't get it ... the source for that is: http://www.amazon.de/Richter-ohne-Gesetz-Paralleljustiz-Rechtsstaat/dp/3548374808/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1457831765&sr=8-2&keywords=scharia+deutschland as well. You can probably guess who is literally SOL in those proceedings ... yes, women and generally anyone belonging to a weaker family who has to deal with a stronger family, making this a thinly veiled version of "Recht des Stärkeren"/law of the jungle on German streets within those communities.

Mind you ... those aren't loonies or anything, Heisig neither ... those are people with insight into the legal system absolutely horrified and frustrated at how helpless the "Rechtsstaat" is in the face of those issues. Especially since they are all but left alone if not outright opposed or even defamed by the politicians in charge when trying to address the issue.

And yeah ... if anything I was kinda surprised as well as disgusted how much literature exists on the subject or rather already existed well before the issue was dragged into the public eye with Cologne. The impression I get from this is that the issue of ... let's call it failed "archaic Muslim" integration or rather the resulting entrenched paralell society is a longstanding problem long in the making ...  which would have exploded sooner or later anyways .... now enter the refugees probably rather sooner than later.

[karajorma]

But other than that, it is a good policy in principle. UK must not become a dumping ground open for unproductive people to settle in at will, permanently. Some kind of a salary limit for immigrants certainly makes a lot of sense to keep GDP per capita high and poverty among immigrant populations low. So I am in favor of laws like these, just not this particular number.

Did you not read the bit where it explained how this would cost the UK money?

[666maslo666]

But other than that, it is a good policy in principle. UK must not become a dumping ground open for unproductive people to settle in at will, permanently. Some kind of a salary limit for immigrants certainly makes a lot of sense to keep GDP per capita high and poverty among immigrant populations low. So I am in favor of laws like these, just not this particular number.

Did you not read the bit where it explained how this would cost the UK money?

Yes, this specific proposal with the limit set at 35,000 would cost the UK small amount of money, even in GDP per capita:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/117957/impact-assessment-tier2.pdf (page 18)

But the impact of similar law with the limit set lower (at average wage) would not necessarily be negative in GDP per capita.

[Grizzly]

If you're drawing a salary, then by definition you are not "unproductive".

Relatively unproductive compared to people with higher salary. It is important to ensure that immigrants arent poorer than the natives, both from economic standpoint, but also for their easier integration. The only question is where exactly to put the cut-off. 35,000 seems too high to me..

The problem is that Tier 2 immigrants are already earning more money then quite a few of the natives - Otherwise they'd not be able to get a tier 2 license to begin with: It's a requirement.

(Also, it should perhaps be noted that salary != productivity)

[Mika]

It's an interesting week in Central Europe (well, in my perspective).

A car bomb blows up in Berlin, and four police are wounded in an anti-terrorism operation in Bruxelles. And Europol is warning about increased threat of terrorism in Northern Europe. Although, it's unclear to me what is meant by "North" in this case.

I suppose there's only a couple of possible target cities north to Gulf of Finland where blowing stuff up could cause some kind of damage and maybe net some dozens of dead people. But that would immediately reverse acceptance of refugees to a good old village level smack down. With sufficient number of rounds to make the point. And then proper kicking the dudes back where they came from.

So let's see how long it takes till we get a first Defence Forces internal peacekeeping operation here. I'll be volunteering if push comes to shove.

Then again, things have been a bit more quiet around here, I wonder if it's the winter or if it's just the Finns attitude?

[Phantom Hoover]

thanks mate, there's nothing like some vile xenophobic murderwank to remind me which side i'm really on