Author Topic: Physically-Based Rendering Builds  (Read 18628 times)

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Offline fightermedic

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
usually it would be (as in unreal engine 4, the most prominent example for an pbr engine right now i guess)
- the diffuse color
- rough = how polished the surface is, monochrome image
- normal
- glow
- spec = highlights on NON metal surfaces, doesn't do anything for metals, monochrome image, default value is 0.5
- metal = the amount of metal reflection of the surface, monochrome image
- Ambient occlusion, monochrome image
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Offline DahBlount

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
We wouldn't use the UE4 pipeline because we don't have a metalness texture addition, just -albedo, -spec, and -gloss. So instead, we'd use:

-Albedo
-Specular
-Gloss
-Glow
-Normal
-AO

If you already own photoshop and have the money to drop on it, Quixel Suite is one of the better ways to go for PBR texturing, primarily because it does it very fast and has a very large(several thousand iirc) PBR calibrated material library. If you don't own Photoshop already, it may be cheaper to use another method of creating PBR materials.
<Axem> yet still more insightful than #hard-light

<Axem> jad2.23 will just be cat videos

<DahBlount> So
<DahBlount> JAD2.2 is like that
<Axem> maybe
<Axem> it can be whatever you like!
<DahBlount> A Chocolate Sundae?
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
only $99 for Quixel Suite? Yeah, I'll do that when we start working this into the main pipeline. Having a list of maps like that is very helpful to me. When things get more nailed down, I'd love a list like that with a quick description and maybe an example of each map? (Like, I know what normal, glow, and AO are. And I know what specular and gloss means from a rendering sense.. I'd just like a bit of an idea of what that looks like to draw in a texture.) Right now, I draw the diffuse and then make the other maps based on that, but it sounds like the diffuse will be very different in PBR.
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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
I have a selfish concern: due to some input bug I have to use antipodes builds. How easily can PBR be merged into those?
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Offline DahBlount

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
only $99 for Quixel Suite? Yeah, I'll do that when we start working this into the main pipeline. Having a list of maps like that is very helpful to me. When things get more nailed down, I'd love a list like that with a quick description and maybe an example of each map? (Like, I know what normal, glow, and AO are. And I know what specular and gloss means from a rendering sense.. I'd just like a bit of an idea of what that looks like to draw in a texture.) Right now, I draw the diffuse and then make the other maps based on that, but it sounds like the diffuse will be very different in PBR.
Have some informative videos!


Once things start to move along, I'll make a comprehensive guide specifically for FSO use.
<Axem> yet still more insightful than #hard-light

<Axem> jad2.23 will just be cat videos

<DahBlount> So
<DahBlount> JAD2.2 is like that
<Axem> maybe
<Axem> it can be whatever you like!
<DahBlount> A Chocolate Sundae?
<Axem> sure

My models: GTF Gilgamesh - GTD Nuadha [Redesigning] - Ningirama [WIP] - GTG Zephyrus

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
Once things start to move along, I'll make a comprehensive guide specifically for FSO use.

:yes: Much appreciated
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Offline Bryan See

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
And what about height/parallax occlusion/displacement maps? What does have to do with physically-based rendering?
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Offline DahBlount

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
I believe they serve the same purpose as they do in the current rendering system. As it is, they have a similar, but not identical purpose to normal maps.  Speaking of which, no changes should be made to normal maps, as they operate the same regardless of PBR being present or not.

I'm currently working on a comprehensive video guide to PBR asset creation in FSO, especially in relation to Quixel Suite. Don't expect it to be finished for quite some time though, as PBR is currently experimental and I don't have any assets ready to be turned into PBR assets.
<Axem> yet still more insightful than #hard-light

<Axem> jad2.23 will just be cat videos

<DahBlount> So
<DahBlount> JAD2.2 is like that
<Axem> maybe
<Axem> it can be whatever you like!
<DahBlount> A Chocolate Sundae?
<Axem> sure

My models: GTF Gilgamesh - GTD Nuadha [Redesigning] - Ningirama [WIP] - GTG Zephyrus

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
Normal maps and height maps as I understand both give the illusion of geometry that does not exist, but through different means.  Normal maps I believe affect the angle of light incidence, allowing to make surfaces appear bumpy or to have light bounce off of creases differently, etc.  Height maps go beyond that I believe and actually extrapolate geometry from the map, so that even viewed at more extreme angles you can actually see geometry occluding things behind it, when that geometry isn't actually on the model.  But please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Offline Bryan See

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
I believe they serve the same purpose as they do in the current rendering system. As it is, they have a similar, but not identical purpose to normal maps.  Speaking of which, no changes should be made to normal maps, as they operate the same regardless of PBR being present or not.

I'm currently working on a comprehensive video guide to PBR asset creation in FSO, especially in relation to Quixel Suite. Don't expect it to be finished for quite some time though, as PBR is currently experimental and I don't have any assets ready to be turned into PBR assets.

I know that, but I'm eager to test it. I believe the assets ready to be turned into PBR assets should be those from Shattered Stars, Blue Planet, Inferno, Diaspora and those based on Star Wars.
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Offline Bryan See

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
I've tested it with my newly created albedo maps, and I feel it's not consistent with what the MGS5's FOX engine displays on physically based diffuse albedo maps. I need guidance on how to create them, because I do not intend to use the base map w/o albedo for diffuse.

This is the feature I've been wanting and Swifty has done perfectly. :)

Now, The E's right on the need for an ambient occlusion map (-ao).

As for the merging of this PBR into the main branch, I can't wait to see this.
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Offline DahBlount

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
I've tested it with my newly created albedo maps, and I feel it's not consistent with what the MGS5's FOX engine displays on physically based diffuse albedo maps. I need guidance on how to create them, because I do not intend to use the base map w/o albedo for diffuse.

This is the feature I've been wanting and Swifty has done perfectly. :)

Now, The E's right on the need for an ambient occlusion map (-ao).

As for the merging of this PBR into the main branch, I can't wait to see this.

Albedo should not have any lighting information in them whatsoever. Most albedo maps tend to be dark for metals, with non-metals having pastelish colors. As for why it's not consistent with FOX engine, that's because they're implemented differently, iirc FOX engine uses the same metalness/roughness setup as UE4, so using the processes for that will yield poor results in FSO.

As I side, videos are being made, they will be finished eventually, just give me some time.

Edit: It's also not really your decision to decide which assets get converted, it's up to whoever decides to take the time to convert them. Many of us have important things irl, like work and school. While I'd personally like to spend more time working on stuff for modding, I have a metric ****ton of classes (21 hours every week, and that's without taking into account homework and study time).
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 12:36:29 pm by DahBlount »
<Axem> yet still more insightful than #hard-light

<Axem> jad2.23 will just be cat videos

<DahBlount> So
<DahBlount> JAD2.2 is like that
<Axem> maybe
<Axem> it can be whatever you like!
<DahBlount> A Chocolate Sundae?
<Axem> sure

My models: GTF Gilgamesh - GTD Nuadha [Redesigning] - Ningirama [WIP] - GTG Zephyrus

 

Offline Talon 1024

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
Should the colour of the albedo map be affected by the paint? I don't think the reflection map should have the paint colours, because that means that the reflection will be the same colour as the paint. Think of a car, for example.

I've been doing some experimentation with the PBR builds myself.
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Offline DahBlount

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
Reflection color depends on the environment and the material, For example, the reason that car reflects mostly white is because it is in a white room with a high gloss value on the paint, but not all paints are glossy and we aren't always in a flat colored room.

Painted metals in particular can actually vary by a large margin, but the paint generally reflects less of the world color than the metal itself.

Example with point lighting, a good approximation of a flat colored room:


Example using image based light:


Zero specular:


Zero gloss:


HDR with lens flares:


As you can see, the metal and paint have similar albedo values, with the metal being slightly darker, however the metal has a very light gray specular color, while the paint has a dark black color. The gloss shows similar values for the metal and the paint, with the metal being slightly lighter overall. Using the HDR with lens flares, we can see that the metal tends to reflect more light than the paint.
Just some interesting insight into how PBR should look.
<Axem> yet still more insightful than #hard-light

<Axem> jad2.23 will just be cat videos

<DahBlount> So
<DahBlount> JAD2.2 is like that
<Axem> maybe
<Axem> it can be whatever you like!
<DahBlount> A Chocolate Sundae?
<Axem> sure

My models: GTF Gilgamesh - GTD Nuadha [Redesigning] - Ningirama [WIP] - GTG Zephyrus

 

Offline Bryan See

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
I've tested the PBR build with cockpits, such as one in the Shattered Stars campaign thread. Although it looked awesome, it would be better to integrate with deferred lighting and soft shadows?
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Offline The E

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
You cannot get PBR without also getting deferred lighting and shadows.
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Offline Bryan See

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
You cannot get PBR without also getting deferred lighting and shadows.

You are right. Without deferred lighting and shadows, we can't get PBR.

I don't understand why the cockpit POF model doesn't have any shadows cast onto it.

Swifty, I hope you make it so by committing the PBR features into the main branch, provided after you added the -ao map support for ambient occlusion.
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Offline Kobrar44

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
The way cockpits are implemented, they are not a part of the world, but are rather drawn onto the frame separately, therefore cannot share the same shadowmap IIRC. Makes sense as they are not the same model as the ship model.
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Offline Bryan See

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
I see. Thanks for the head's up, Kobrar44.
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Offline Bryan See

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Re: Physically-Based Rendering Builds
I've opened an issue on your Github, Swifty. You may want to check it out.

A few things I've seen:

damage glowmap applied for no apparent reason:



cockpit glowmap applied to glas geometry for no apparent reason:



This latter issue is also visible in the F3 lab, and seems to be fairly universal for any model with transparencies.

None of these assets have been converted to PBR.

Also note how much time is spent in page_flip, I am not sure whether that's indicative of anything.

Finally, FXAA seems to not work anymore on my end.

EDIT:

There's also an issue where after playing a cutscene like Icarus, performance seems to tank absolutely. After exiting the cutscene, I got 8 FPS in the lab on something as simple as the MVP Ulysses model, this is clearly indicative of some rather heavy weirdness going on.

These issues can be reproduced using the 2014 MVPs. The Loki is an especially visible example.

The problem is more or less the same.
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