[Phantom Hoover]

What wat? That's the only conclusion you can arrive to from those things, as far as Force powers are concerned anyway.

Double wat.

Since when having different powers makes you more powerful. A low-level cleric is not more powerful than a high-level warrior, even though the warrior cannot use support spells.

I mean, it's spelled out multiple times during the film than Ren isn't as powerful as Vader, and that he's trying to become as powerful as Vader.

Guys. Srsly.

Show, don't tell. What does Vader actually do in the OT? He chokes a couple of officers, steals Han's gun and senses things a few times.

[Erkhyan]

Show, don't tell. What does Vader actually do in the OT? He chokes a couple of officers, steals Han's gun and senses things a few times.

Are we still firmly into “only the movies count and not other non-movie canon material” territory here? Because Rebels and Marvel’s canon comic series have both been doing an awful lot of showing.

[Mongoose]

Show, don't tell. What does Vader actually do in the OT? He chokes a couple of officers, steals Han's gun and senses things a few times.

...and stops point-blank blaster shots with his bare (robot) hand, and flings multiple massive objects at Luke while simultaneously dueling him, and probably one or two other things that I'm neglecting.  Most importantly, he manages all of this while staying calm and focused, attributes that we've seen allow one to unleash one's actual Force potential.

Seriously, I can't see at all how someone can sit through what this film shows and come away thinking, "Kylo Ren is way better than Vader."

[zookeeper]

Seriously, I can't see at all how someone can sit through what this film shows and come away thinking, "Kylo Ren is way better than Vader."

Why would you need to? No one's said that.

[Mongoose]

You yourself did: "Kylo Ren was portrayed as more powerful than Vader."  My response is that the film shows us the exact opposite, and Ren himself knows this.

[zookeeper]

You yourself did: "Kylo Ren was portrayed as more powerful than Vader."  My response is that the film shows us the exact opposite, and Ren himself knows this.

Yes, he was first portrayed as more powerful than Vader, and then as weaker than Vader. No one was saying that there weren't moments when he was weaker than Vader, but that there were moment(s) when he was stronger than Vader. And that's like, obviously a completely different thing than, in your words, sitting through the film and coming away thinking Kylo Ren would kick Vader's ass in-universe.

[General Battuta]

I like the Kylo Ren character a lot. He's especially interesting to see in the next movie after Revenge of the Sith, since he resembles Hayden-Anakin in a mask more than Hayden-Anakin resembled Vader.

[swashmebuckle]

Episode IX: My Grandpa Could Beat Up Your Grandpa

[Dragon]

Yes, he was first portrayed as more powerful than Vader, and then as weaker than Vader. No one was saying that there weren't moments when he was weaker than Vader, but that there were moment(s) when he was stronger than Vader.

Did you consider that he might just have had a different bag of tricks than Vader? The only time I clearly saw him do something Vader probably couldn't was the scene with the blaster bolt. Seeing as Vader could absorb one into his hand (dunno if that was using the Force, or if it was just his glove being though), he didn't really need that particular power. With the amount of things you can do with the Force, even an experienced Sith won't know every technique. They trained under different masters, so there might have been some specific areas in which Kylo was better than Vader. As far as I saw it, though, they were few and far between. Unless, of course, by "powerful" you meant "raw natural" power, that is, midichlorians each of them was born with. That could very well be (we don't know how inheriting midichlorians works), but then raw power doesn't make up for his lack of skill.

There's a bit of inconsistency regarding just how good Kylo is, but the intended impression seems to be "not very good". He did pull of some impressive feats, but overall he seemed inferior to me. Also, given his personality, he might have learned those impressive techniques precisely because they're impressive. Vader was hardly the one to show off. "Catching" a blaster bolt like Vader did would probably be more practical, but a blob of plasma frozen in the air looks much more visually impressive.

[Akalabeth Angel]

What wat? That's the only conclusion you can arrive to from those things, as far as Force powers are concerned anyway.

Double wat.

Since when having different powers makes you more powerful. A low-level cleric is not more powerful than a high-level warrior, even though the warrior cannot use support spells.

I mean, it's spelled out multiple times during the film than Ren isn't as powerful as Vader, and that he's trying to become as powerful as Vader.

Guys. Srsly.

Vader blocked blaster bolts with his hand.
Kylo Ren blocked blaster bolts with his mind.

Which do you think is more powerful?

Kylo Ren also used the force to paralyze people.
When did Vader do that? Never.

When would it have been EXTREMELY useful? The Empire Strikes Back.
You know who could have also paralyzed someone? The Emperor paralyzing Vader before he threw him to his death.


Blocking blaster bolts. Telekenetically paralyzing people. Interrogating people with the force. These are all new abilities and superior to anything displayed in the previous 6 movies.

He breaks somebody's will in an interrogation cell. Vader/Anakin is able to do this, too.

Neither Vader or the Emperor ever interrogate anyone with the force.
They only read emotionally-charged surface level thoughts from Luke.

Whereas Ren literally interrogates people with the force.

Conclusion: Kylo Ren is trying to be Galaxy's Next Darth Vader (evidenced by Vader's old helmet/mask)

Yeah and if that scene wasn't in the show, would you have the same opinion? "I wanna be Vader, therefore the audience will believe I'm not as good as Vader even though I'm displaying much more powerful abilities".  In nerd speak, that scene is a mind trick to make you believe he's not as good as vader even though everything in the movie points to him being superior than the "chosen one"

[zookeeper]

Did you consider that he might just have had a different bag of tricks than Vader?

Sure. Obviously there's no rules for how many talent or skill points you need for this or that power, but I can't really see the blaster bolt thing as something that Obi-wan, Vader or Luke could have pulled off in the OT even if they had really devoted themselves to practising it for years. Pushing a blaster bolt to the side a bit so it misses? Sure. Pre-empting it and simply dodging? Yeah, why not. Catching it and maybe absorbing some of the energy so that your armoured mechanical hand doesn't wear out quite as much? Absolutely.

But freezing a blaster bolt in mid-air and being able to hold it there for a prolonged period without seemingly having to concentrate on it much at all to me clearly requires the kind of extreme influence over physical reality that none of the aforementioned three could have managed. Even Yoda's big feat, requiring great concentration, is to just slowly lift a fighter up from a swamp.

As said, there's no exact rules so no one can prove who could do what, all that the audience gets is a fuzzy impression of how hard certain things are, and thus how skilled the person doing it needs to be. Does someone really think that the blaster bolt feat as seen in the film doesn't feel more powerful than anything we see Vader do?

[NGTM-1R]

Honestly I'm not even sure why it's necessary to assume the blaster bolt is any different from any other time we've seen a force user use telekinesis. As the blaster bolt is either massless or has very little mass because it's a blaster bolt, it's also the weakest use of it in the series.

It demonstrates a great deal of finesse and fine reflexes, but there's no reason to assume it was some kind of reality-warping time-stop power we should all be in awe of.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Honestly I'm not even sure why it's necessary to assume the blaster bolt is any different from any other time we've seen a force user use telekinesis. As the blaster bolt is either massless or has very little mass because it's a blaster bolt, it's also the weakest use of it in the series.

Do you not understand the difference between picking up a box and stopping a bullet?

Further do you know how many Jedi got killed by blaster bolts in Episodes II and III? Did you ever see any of them stop a single blaster shot?

there's no reason to assume it was some kind of reality-warping time-stop power we should all be in awe of.

Given that the director most likely added that shot in order to make Kylo Ren look cool/powerful I find your reasoning faulty on multiple levels.
If it was nothing to be in awe of, then it would have been shown and discarded not made to be a showcase to both the audience and the characters.

[NGTM-1R]

Do you not understand the difference between picking up a box and stopping a bullet?

Do you not understand the difference between how a trained Force-user perceives the world and how we do?

No, it's clear you don't.

Force users are shown, repeatedly, to be able to stop bullets. They don't simply hold out their hand and make them stop in mid-air usually, but stopping a "bullet" is something we've seen them do before, many times. Vader just sucked one up. Dozens of Jedi in the prequels as well as Luke were shown to be able to stop them or redirect them with a lightsaber, and even just dodge them even at times when by rights this shouldn't be possible.

The reflexes required to prevent a blaster bolt from hitting you at short range by hook or by crook are amazing to us.

They are normal to Kylo Ren, as indeed they are normal to most Force-users. His method is flashy. That does not make it powerful.

Your argument about why the director chose it is facile on multiple levels. First, as noted, his method is visually impressive but ultimately no more effective than most, and even less effective than some (during the prequels and the sail barge fight Jedi are shown to be able to redirect blaster fire at their attackers or to other targets as they desire, turning the weapons of their enemies to their own purpose). Second, while it was obviously chosen because it was visually impressive, the fact that Kylo Ren chose a visually impressive method does not mean of necessity that we are to be in awe of his power. It could equally reflect his ego, be an attempt to intimidate others, or for a host of other reasons that speak to the needs of Kylo Ren. It doesn't have to be as one-dimensional as you want it to be. Third, your argument is explicitly born from the director's interpretation of the scene, rather than a viewer interpretation. Go look up Death of the Author. I'll wait.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Force users are shown, repeatedly, to be able to stop bullets. They don't simply hold out their hand and make them stop in mid-air usually, but stopping a "bullet" is something we've seen them do before, many times. Vader just sucked one up. Dozens of Jedi in the prequels as well as Luke were shown to be able to stop them or redirect them with a lightsaber, and even just dodge them even at times when by rights this shouldn't be possible.

Show me one example in any of the other six Star Wars movie where a force user stops a blaster shot in mid-air using only his mind.

[The E]

Well, Yoda once caught and redirected a bunch of force lightning...

[Akalabeth Angel]

Well, Yoda once caught and redirected a bunch of force lightning...

That's probably the closest analogy, the difference of course being that he was using all his concentration to perform the action rather than nonchalantly walking and chatting.

[Dragon]

I don't really think the lighting bit is relevant, seeing as it's a Force power as well. Yoda not only had to redirect the bolts themselves, he had to mentally fight the user casting them. Force Lighting is a very high level Dark Side power.

I think that the main point of Kylo's blaster bolt trick was, ultimately, looking cool. Indeed, in light of the rest of the movie, I think this might have been one of these scenes (there were more like that) which were visually impressive, but the implications weren't quite thought out. It clashes with what we're shown afterwards.

Also, logically speaking, it just hit me that it's stopping a blaster bolt that would require a lot of energy expenditure and concentration. Keeping it there afterwards would be a trivial trick of little utility. Could Luke levitate a bullet-sized object and hold it in the air during his early days? Probably. This is no different, aside from the initial effort it took to actually bring the bolt to a halt. The motive force is applied to the bolt as it leaves the barrel. It's no wonder Kylo could walk and talk with this thing hanging in the air. It looks to us like it should spring forward the moment he lets go, but it shouldn't. He didn't freeze time, he froze the bolt. He would likely have to put some effort into stopping it from dissipating (talk about showing off...), but that's probably not very hard, either. In light of the above, what he did was a totally pointless show trick that seemed mighty and awesome to everyone who didn't know its workings. That's Kylo Ren, all right. This is also why we didn't see it earlier. Other Jedi might have stopped bolts as well, but if they did, they let them drop and dissipate afterwards.

Note that the above is an example of "fridge brilliance" and thus isn't really a plus. When you think "Hey, that scene does make sense after all." the next day (or two...) after watching the movie, this still means something went wrong, just not as badly as you thought.

[Erkhyan]

I’m currently reading Marvel’s Vader Down series, where Vader effortlessly deflects dozens of proton torpedoes in the middle of a furball, destroys several attacking Y-Wings only with his mind, and decimates entire Rebel infantry platoons all by himself.

And then I’m reading people arguing that he’s not that impressive compared to Tantrum Junior.

Ha.

[Crashdown117]

He breaks somebody's will in an interrogation cell. Vader/Anakin is able to do this, too.

Neither Vader or the Emperor ever interrogate anyone with the force.
They only read emotionally-charged surface level thoughts from Luke.

True, they don't actually do it on-screen. But please read one more sentence that is there. You know, the one right after stating that I think this is merely a mind trick like what Rey does with the stormtrooper when she's in the cell or what Ben Kenobi does in ANH when they arrive at Mos Eisley and the Troopers stop them.

Conclusion: Kylo Ren is trying to be Galaxy's Next Darth Vader (evidenced by Vader's old helmet/mask)

Yeah and if that scene wasn't in the show, would you have the same opinion? "I wanna be Vader, therefore the audience will believe I'm not as good as Vader even though I'm displaying much more powerful abilities".  In nerd speak, that scene is a mind trick to make you believe he's not as good as vader even though everything in the movie points to him being superior than the "chosen one"

Definitely the same opinion, regardless of the existence of that particular scene. I'm only using that shot as evidence, not as the one and only basis for my opinion. But then again, discussing this is a bit stupid, since the scene is in the movie for a reason: To show what Kylo Ren is like. "Wanna be Vader" is a rather important part of his character IMO, as Vader himself is the role model to him, the thing that Kylo Ren wants to achieve. So if he doesn't say/show/convey by mind tricks played on the audience that he looks up to his grandfather and wants to be like him, then his whole character falls apart in my eyes and what's left of him is nothing but a wimp wearing a somewhat Revan-like mask/helmet and wielding an exotic kind of lightsaber. I have to admit though, that some of the stuff he pulls off looks cooler and maybe even superior to Vader's tricks and feats in the OT. But think about one little thing: How to do things like what we see in TFA with the special effects/CGI tech that was available back when they made these three movies?