[General Battuta]

That's orthogonal to your argument, though. Everyone's agreed on what bows mean in different place - even the critics there! Go back here:

'we' don't always agree. The fact that we do sometimes, even most of the time, does not mean we will always be able to, this might be an example of a time when we cannot.

We haven't agreed on the Confederate flag, but right now, the evidence is pointing to this flag falling into the same class of symbols as the swastika and the KKK getup - a symbol which has an undeniable semantic connection, in our country, to violence against a specific group. If the flag is a fabrication, if it is not an effective communicator of either I support state's rights or I respect the heritage of Civil War veterans, if it is to many people an effective communicator of Black People Get Hurt, what reason is there to retain it as a publicly acceptable symbol, rather than treating it like mom leers?

[General Battuta]

Cultural relativism actually means the opposite of 'all things are interchangeable and meaningless.' It says that symbols are given meaning by the actions and history around them!

[Bobboau]

For large potions of people in the south this symbol has had a different history than in the north. You are acting as though the country is culturally homogeneous.

[General Battuta]

I refer you back to NGTM1R's posts. Why do you keep bringing the north into this? It hasn't been necessary yet.

[Bobboau]

because I don't see most of the criticism of this symbol coming from the south.

[Scotty]

Bobboau, you seem to be stuck in Strawman Mode.  I suggest confronting the actual arguments instead!

[General Battuta]

because I don't see most of the criticism of this symbol coming from the south.

Well, that's a factual statement, and in theory we could arbitrate it with research. We're probably not going to, but here's my half-assed effort.

Bree Newsome did her thing in North Carolina. Governor Nikki Haley is in charge of South Carolina. I googled those names and got this which makes the action seem very Southern.

[Bobboau]

Bobboau, you seem to be stuck in Strawman Mode.  I suggest confronting the actual arguments instead!

I'm sorry, who's argument have I misrepresented? and what "actual argument" would you like me to get back to? I was under the delusion that I was having a discussion and expressing my opinions, sorry about that.

[Bobboau]

because I don't see most of the criticism of this symbol coming from the south.

Well, that's a factual statement, and in theory we could arbitrate it with research. We're probably not going to, but here's my half-assed effort.

Bree Newsome did her thing in North Carolina. Governor Nikki Haley is in charge of South Carolina. I googled those names and got this which makes the action seem very Southern.

well, it's a statement about what I've seen, but I accept your implied premise that I could be mistaken about this. I'll see if I can find anything to back my hunch up.

[Scotty]

Neither flag, particularly, is enthralling in its history. However, the authentic battle flags at least have an excuse that you are memorializing those of your state or your relation who did what they perceived to be their duty. The flag is still distasteful as ultimately the symbol of the bizarre idea of a republic founded on preserving slavery, but it is also on some level defensible as a banner under which the future of mankind was expressed at Hampton Roads and Petersburg, great deeds were performed, and many died in what they thought was the defense of hearth and home. If someone chooses to fly an authentic flag over a memorial to Confederate dead or display it out of respect for ancestors who fell, this is something about which I think reasonable people can disagree. I am myself of two minds on the subject as this probably makes clear. (While I personally find it too distasteful to want to ever make a personal display, despite a family history that is mildly distinguished in its service to the Confederacy, I do not necessarily have objection to others doing so. There are of course ways to quickly cause such objection to develop.)

The elongated version, as I commented before and which you have conveniently forgotten by the time of this post, does not actually match the naval ensign (stars and layout of them, also general shape of the rectangle) or anything save a prototype considered for the national flag of the Confederacy that was not selected, and was introduced to widespread use only in the late '50s and early '60s to provide a symbol for resistance to civil rights and the federal government. (Before that point only a single example existed.) The only people who died as result of that flag were black; the only way in which they died was at best "civil unrest" rather than "active combat". Its history includes no great acts of bravery or world-altering moments. The flag, as I have now pointed out twice, is not really a flag of the Confederate States of America. It has been imbued with that meaning as a defense, but it is not a meaning it has any legitimate title to.

And on the other hand, there is also the fact that even if it was accepted to be "a Confederate flag" it is not the flag those being memorialized supposedly would recognize or have fought under. While it is a dangerous thing to argue emotional attachment should necessarily make sense, I think that in general we can all agree that if we are attempting to be respectful it behooves us to do so with an eye towards performing respectful acts with the correct implements and behavior. It would be perceived as a grave insult by most veterans to fly the flag of the wrong nation or even the wrong service over war dead, yet that is in effect what is being done. A great deal of my contempt for the argument to preserve the elongated flag stems from this.

This post, one of several.  Your crusade on cultural relativism and criticism of the geographic location of people who have a problem with the flag is utterly, totally pointless.  It is a deliberate, calculated tool of racial oppression and has been since its inception.  It is not a historical symbol of anything any of its apologists claim it represents.

When you tackle that part, perhaps we can discuss the relative importance of geography when it comes to decrying racism.

[Bobboau]

I'll see if I can find anything to back my hunch up.

this is interesting. Apparently I grew up in the one place that considered it to mean 'southern pride' more than the south did. and it looks like you are right, the north south divide seems a lot weaker than I expected and it's not very strong in the south. Interestingly the south seems to be the most confused as to what it means. maybe I did have a skewed view of this.

ok, though I maintain my point hypothetically, I concede on the facts.

[Bobboau]

...

I'm not following any of that, but given I just conceded I guess it's not important.

[General Battuta]

We did it, we had a civil discussion, I'm buying shots

[666maslo666]

if it is to many people an effective communicator of Black People Get Hurt, what reason is there to retain it as a publicly acceptable symbol, rather than treating it like mom leers?

Because to even more people, it is a symbol of Southern pride and not racism. It is not a symbol like swastika, where the meaning is clear and pretty unambiguous.

[General Battuta]

This is one of those times I just want to post a link to an earlier post in the thread and create a (hopefully useful) loop. Your point has been shot down more than a Brewster Buffalo.

To whom, exactly, is a flag fabricated as part of a systematic anti-Black movement, a flag designed to recall a traitor movement created to ensure the perpetuation of slavery, unambiguously not racist? Where are these 'more people' who outnumber American Blacks? Even if there were a great many of them, even if we accepted a claim to the validity of remembrance, why would they prefer this created flag to a genuine Confederate flag? Read the evidence presented above. The meaning is clear and unambiguous.

[Luis Dias]

I'm pretty much convinced, especially by NGTM's last post about the subject. Very substantial and complete. Thanks! I guess I was taken by the feeling of "something's not entirely right" in this whole story, by how certain issues change in such a rapid way that seem to catch everyone off guard, and I'm always weary (perhaps too much?) of some kind of We have always been at war with Oceania" effect.

[karajorma]

Which is why the point needs to be made in a different way. Instead of going on about slavery just point out that the flag is disrespectful to those who died fighting for the south in the civil war. Cause really it makes as much sense using this flag as waving Nazi flags at the Dali Lama cause they have a swastika on them.

[Bobboau]

Interestingly, according to the data, it seems that, while this is largely a black/white issue, political party affiliation seems to be an even stronger predictor than race. Make of that what you will.

[General Battuta]

Interestingly, according to the data, it seems that, while this is largely a black/white issue, political party affiliation seems to be an even stronger predictor than race. Make of that what you will.

That's true of a lot of issues. The alignment is so strong that some researchers have argued people are actually answering questions tactically as a sign of party solidarity, rather than expressing their true beliefs. (not on this issue in particular - on a whole range of stuff)

[Bobboau]

that would make a lot of.. depressing sense...