[Grizzly]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy

[headdie]

certainly interesting though I would have liked to see some sources

[An4ximandros]

Welcome, to the New Russia.

[General Battuta]

This study has seen a lot of coverage in the lay press. There's one enormous piece of information missing from this whole conversation, and it's what I've been screaming for years:

It never was!

The United States (like many democracies, to varying extents) has alway been afflicted by plutocracy, brutality, extreme political polarization, deadlock in the legislature, and clumsy attempts at surveillance and repression by government organs. Things have been better than they are now, but they've also been worse. Any student of history knows this.

This study isn't wrong, but the way it's been covered is myopic Chicken Little alarmism.

[Dragon]

Yeah, by definition, US isn't really a democracy. And it never really was, TBH. So what, I'm asking? It's not plummeting head first into stagnation and socialism, like most actual democracies are nowadays, it's not growing old and senile, it's not going bankrupt or swamped by immigrants exploiting it's social system. US political system might not be the best, and it was affected by many pitfalls common to real democracies, and also some stuff not encountered in them, but all in all, it seems things have worked out for them. "Democracy" is a really nice buzzwords that public likes to hear, but the only place I've seen it actually work out in is Switzerland (which is a). a very advanced country with educated citizens. b). pretty much a direct democracy, something rather uncommon).

[General Battuta]

Your opinion on 'stagnation and socialism' in most 'actual democracies' is not particularly backed by empirical data, and your assessment of democracy seems myopic and skewed (and I'm speaking as someone who's worked directly on MIT's study of Swiss democracy). The system works well in a number of respects across a number of countries. All systems confront challenges.

[Nuke]

i never had any illusions about the usa. even before i took intro to political science and it confirmed what i already expected.

im all for a revolution myself. mostly because i like blood, and jack boots make me look sexy. maybe i can rally the local gun toting hicks into a writhing death machine.

if i ran things it would be a lot like 1984, except with more beatings.

[Phantom Hoover]

Man it's weird how much the neofascists on this site keep lionising Switzerland so much. It's not like it springs out as a paragon of social development on the world stage, at least not to me.

[General Battuta]

Their naturalization process became a lot more fair and unprejudiced once they stopped using direct democracy for it.

[IronBeer]

This study has seen a lot of coverage in the lay press. There's one enormous piece of information missing from this whole conversation, and it's what I've been screaming for years:

It never was!

The United States (like many democracies, to varying extents) has alway been afflicted by plutocracy, brutality, extreme political polarization, deadlock in the legislature, and clumsy attempts at surveillance and repression by government organs. Things have been better than they are now, but they've also been worse. Any student of history knows this.

This study isn't wrong, but the way it's been covered is myopic Chicken Little alarmism.

Were I to actually wade into this thread, this is about what I would say.

[Grizzly]

Yeah, by definition, US isn't really a democracy. And it never really was, TBH. So what, I'm asking? It's not plummeting head first into stagnation and socialism, like most actual democracies are nowadays, it's not growing old and senile, it's not going bankrupt or swamped by immigrants exploiting it's social system.

As a member of one of those 'actual democracies' (the Netherlands), I wonder where you got this impression.

[SypheDMar]

The United States (like many democracies, to varying extents) has alway been afflicted by plutocracy, brutality, extreme political polarization, deadlock in the legislature, and clumsy attempts at surveillance and repression by government organs.

These "non-democratic" faults are inherent in all democracies. The US is just an inefficient inefficient democracy, so these flaws show more often. The winner-takes-all system creates plutocracy, polarized politics, and deadlocks in the legislature. The latter two would be more effective if the US wasn't a democracy.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the US is not a democracy or that it never was, but I do think that we've been pretty bad at it for a long time.

[jr2]

Constitutional Republic

[Grizzly]

Constitutional Republic

A democracy and a constitional republic are not mutually exclusive. The US advertises itself as a democracy whenever it comits itself to powerfull actions on the geopolitical front as well.