[headdie]

Oh yes, of course. Being civil is so much more important than having arguments that actually hold up. Don't want to scare off those "hidden third parties" with our rudeness.
Making up ridiculous claims and slippery slope arguments is fine as long as you're being civil about it

and being rude is the ultimate expression of freedom of speech

[Luis Dias]

Spoon, you're capable of discussing the issues without snark or condescension.  Do so.

I didn't feel being the target of any of those. I quite get what Spoon is saying, I just disagree with him. And FrikgFeek, there's nothing wrong about my argument, which is based on a subjective intuition, just like yours is, so don't pretend you have some sort of "logical fallacies" high ground here (please don't go that route).

[FrikgFeek]

The fact that like 95% of forums allow avatars and they're not a bloated mess is obviously just intuition. The fact that they can also be turned off at will is just conjecture, it's not like that option already exists.
Can you maybe cite some examples for forums that have added in basic features like avatars and become a bloated mess because of it? Otherwise I'd say there's plenty wrong with your argument, starting with it being utterly ridiculous.

I mean what ****ing "design scope" are you even talking about? Since when do PHP forums have those? How do avatars(that can be turned off at will) go against HLP's goal of distributing and promoting freespace mods? Are you afraid SCP devs will suddenly spend so much time tweaking the forum they'll stop fixing bugs and releasing new builds? Intuition is fine but your whole argument boils down to "cuz I said so", you're free to believe that but it's a very poor position to actually argue from.

[Goober5000]

Whether you feel it or not, Luis, that is precisely what Spoon is doing.  His entire argument, starting from his first ****post in the previous thread, has been pure rhetoric.  He's not participating in a good faith discussion.  This should be obvious based on the fact that Axem gave him a title that is even more blatantly insulting than the one I gave him (in complete contrast to what he demanded, "Why don't I get a fine title that acknowledges that I did something great,") and he's "glad of it".

[Luis Dias]

The fact that like 95% of forums allow avatars and they're not a bloated mess is obviously just intuition. The fact that they can also be turned off at will is just conjecture, it's not like that option already exists.
Can you maybe cite some examples for forums that have added in basic features like avatars and become a bloated mess because of it? Otherwise I'd say there's plenty wrong with your argument, starting with it being utterly ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous to have a different taste and aesthetic opinion, and you're angry without any reason for being so. Calm down.

I mean what ****ing "design scope" are you even talking about? Since when do PHP forums have those? How do avatars(that can be turned off at will) go against HLP's goal of distributing and promoting freespace mods? Are you afraid SCP devs will suddenly spend so much time tweaking the forum they'll stop fixing bugs and releasing new builds? Intuition is fine but your whole argument boils down to "cuz I said so", you're free to believe that but it's a very poor position to actually argue from.

There is no "argument" here. There is only an aesthetical preference. Which you dislike. That's fine. Can you please calm down now?

Whether you feel it or not, Luis, that is precisely what Spoon is doing.  His entire argument, starting from his first ****post in the previous thread, has been pure rhetoric.  He's not participating in a good faith discussion.  This should be obvious based on the fact that Axem gave him a title that is even more blatantly insulting than the one I gave him (in complete contrast to what he demanded, "Why don't I get a fine title that acknowledges that I did something great,") and he's "glad of it".

I'll leave the tone for you, I just take whatever good I see in Spoon posts. He's always been a good person towards me, and I really don't see anything wrong with his commentary. I can take some snark. He knows it. It's fine. He disagrees, it's fine.

Can everyone please calm down? It's just an avatar.

[General Battuta]

The fact that this forum posts more about posting than about Freespace is bad and silly. Handing out redtext titles as a way to rebuke or praise users is also bad and silly, because it creates an economy of favor which values or devalues every post the user makes. (I do love my title tho)

Spoon's made his position clear; avatars would be a good way to let users express themselves and there seems to no reason not to try it.

My experience on SA is that you'll end up with some awesome distinctive avatars, and yet users without avatars can still be easy to recognize and don't get drowned out of conversations. Give it a spin.

Play some FreeSpace tutu (that stands for 2 too)

[FrikgFeek]

It's not ridiculous to have a different taste and aesthetic opinion, and you're angry without any reason for being so. Calm down.

They can be turned off at any time. Why do you have a problem with other people seeing them? If they were somehow forced on you I would completely understand and I wouldn't even try to argue against it.

[Phantom Hoover]

i kind of like hlp's look without the avatars and i don't really want to see it spoiled, especially as part of some dumb proxy war against the site's old guard

[General Battuta]

There are two primary systems of organizing human relationships, prestige and dominance - prestige being unique among the primates! Each has statistically distinct expressions and consequences. Dominance is associated with local control and the ability to silence other voices. Prestige persists even when the person is absent and tends to be characterized by inclusion, instruction, and reference.

I just thought that was cool

i kind of like hlp's look without the avatars and i don't really want to see it spoiled, especially as part of some dumb proxy war against the site's old guard

Turn off avatars. I am the old guard because I came from the VBB. I am graybatt gorilla

[Luis Dias]

They can be turned off at any time. Why do you have a problem with other people seeing them? If they were somehow forced on you I would completely understand and I wouldn't even try to argue against it.

I'm voicing my opinion. I also said "do as you please". So I really don't understand your aggressiveness. Your voice is as significant as mine.

...especially as part of some dumb proxy war against the site's old guard

I guess that's part of the tradition too.

[Phantom Hoover]

Here is my problem with this "Avatars will bloat HLP" argument. HLP already has avatars, its just that only some users can have them. If the concern really was reducing bloat and a minimalist design, then shouldn't admins not have them either? Shouldn't badges go away too then?

Badges are small and pretty neat, I honestly would be fine with user avatars about the size of like 6 badges stuck in a row, admin avatars are pretty tasteful and are more like big, personalised badges but honestly i'd rather they go away than have everyone picking arbitrary avatars.

[Grizzly]

One can preserve The exclusivity of admin avatars by restricting The size of The avatar based on site responsebilities.

For example (i do not know The exact dimensions of The current system, please Bear with me) 64 by 64 for users, 80 by 80 for mods, 100 by 100 for Global mods and 128 by 128 for admins

Or indeed any ratio that seems fitting. This allows for More personalization whilst still preserving a bit of visual cohesion
 Itll also allows users to easily denote if someone is staff as The custom title system makes that confusing.

Also, badges are cool. Theyre like campaign ribbons.

[Axem]

This should be obvious based on the fact that Axem gave him a title that is even more blatantly insulting than the one I gave him (in complete contrast to what he demanded, "Why don't I get a fine title that acknowledges that I did something great,") and he's "glad of it".

It's not blatantly insulting. It's an ironic in-joke title that I thought we've all come to love. See, on Something Awful, there are Stupid Newbie avatars everywhere. And since Spoon has been attempting to channel his inner wanna-be goon self recently, I thought it would be fitting to give him that title. But I did ask his permission before hand. If he said "no, I'd rather not have that", I would have just removed the "I did a great thing".

And thank you for proving my point about these titles. You had said,

Spoon's new title qualifies as such because it is a backhanded reference to his post.  It can be read straight or read in the sense of a petty cry for attention.  The particular interpretation is left for the reader, although I see now that the dual meaning is perhaps too subtle.

So its not a sincere title you've given him, its a backhanded one. How is anyone supposed to feel about that now? There's a twisted context to it that isn't apparent to anyone who knows that. (Also I know you said it could be taken as an olive branch but... really, after that line its very suspect what the true intention is.)

That's why these ironic titles are dumb and I'd rather see those go away.

Badges are small and pretty neat, I honestly would be fine with user avatars about the size of like 6 badges stuck in a row,

I like that idea. That would be a neat and novel idea for HLP's unique environment.

[Spoon]

FrikgFeek, calm down friend. Being grrr mad  is my thing. Please don't appropriate my identity!

Luis Dias, I think you are generally a pretty swell guy.

Also I am upvoting Battuta's and Axem's posts because they are good and I agree with them. Expect some of that delicious reddit karma soon boys.

[Goober5000]

It's not blatantly insulting. It's an ironic in-joke title that I thought we've all come to love. See, on Something Awful, there are Stupid Newbie avatars everywhere. And since Spoon has been attempting to channel his inner wanna-be goon self recently, I thought it would be fitting to give him that title. But I did ask his permission before hand. If he said "no, I'd rather not have that", I would have just removed the "I did a great thing".

"Stupid Newbie" is insulting on the face of it, though.  How does that accord with his demand for "a fine title that acknowledges that I did something great"?

Unless the in-joke is what makes the "fine title", and the Something Awful reference is what is valued, moreso than the marker of HLP accomplishment.  In which case, fair enough, and I retract what I said about the new title.

And thank you for proving my point about these titles. You had said,

Spoon's new title qualifies as such because it is a backhanded reference to his post.  It can be read straight or read in the sense of a petty cry for attention.  The particular interpretation is left for the reader, although I see now that the dual meaning is perhaps too subtle.

So its not a sincere title you've given him, its a backhanded one. How is anyone supposed to feel about that now? There's a twisted context to it that isn't apparent to anyone who knows that. (Also I know you said it could be taken as an olive branch but... really, after that line its very suspect what the true intention is.)

That's why these ironic titles are dumb and I'd rather see those go away.

I said as much in my response to karajorma.  It was a backhanded title because Spoon made a ****post.  If he had made a regular request post, or if he had PMmed and asked for a title, I would have been much more favorably disposed.

And again, I'm in favor of re-emphasizing the original intent of custom titles, as I said here.  I'll freely admit that I haven't been as attentive in recent history to award titles based on merit and distinction.  I haven't dropped the ball entirely, but my ratio of ironic titles to meritorious titles is probably about 3:1.



I think it would be worth tabling this discussion for now and revisiting it in a month with fresh eyes and calmer tones.  ****posting is a terrible way to kick off a discussion, and it's led to mudslinging and rhetoric-slinging in most of the posts that followed. 

[Spoon]

Hi Goober, I don't engage with you because of various reasons. Most of the mudslinging that has been done is done by you though! And if you read the first page back there isn't actually any mudslinging going on and it's actually nothing but a constructive normal discussion. My first post in this thread was not a '****post' and I am hurt you keep saying that it was. You actually have said a lot of really backhanded things about me in this thread but I'll just pretend that you didn't.

Anyway, I felt it was necessary to point out that you are introducing falsehoods with these claims, and that tabling this discussion at this point seems rather pointless. Especially since it seems Karajorma hasn't found the time yet to post today and I deem it unlikely he has nothing else to add at this point.

Also I wholeheartly disagree with pretty much everything you have said in this thread and I feel your policy of stagnation is actively hurtful to the site/community as a whole. All of your points have been easily refuted by several well thought out posts. And you just resort to your refuge of "it has always been like this" to try and wave it all away. I don't even have to do any effort to refute your arguments, because the best argument against your points are your own posts. You are literally quoting posts from 2010 from members that in this very thread have expressed different views now, to adress a subject brought up in 2016. You are advocating tradition for the sake of tradition. I find it very hard not to be condescending about that, but I'm trying my darnest here!

I'll stop my engagement with you there, because you have a history of not understanding my sense of humor and interpreting everything as a personal attack of sorts.
Have a fun thread 

[Axem]

It's not really a valued title or anything. It's just part of life over there. And this mess with his titles are all part of the ironic context.

You have him a title "I did a great thing" as a back handed way to respond to his demands. Looks great on the outside, he didn't think it was great after reading your reasoning.

I gave him the title "Stupid Newbie" not because he's stupid or a newbie, but its a funny thing the cesspit of Something Awful which I know he is entertained by. Looks bad on the outside, but he isn't offended by it because he gets the joke.

Neither situation is an actually good one.

I'm still unsure about merit-based titles. It's easy to fall out of the practice and people will feel left out. If there was some sort of nomination system or very clear guidelines, then maybe. But I don't think it should be merely be at the behest of the admins.

Also I think waiting a month and revisiting the issue is a good one.

[General Battuta]

I like badges.

If posts are organs of the human psyche, as the philosopher Grintholde asserts, then posts about posting must be reckoned the resultant sores and cankers infecting the aggregate forum of the human race. Of all posts, these are the most detestable, since they are posted for no tangible gain, but only to alter the context of other posts.

-General Battuta

[Spoon]

Seems like titles are a no-win situation for most people involved. Might as well make the personal text into a title.

I like badges.

If posts are organs of the human psyche, as the philosopher Grintholde asserts, then posts about posting must be reckoned the resultant sores and cankers infecting the aggregate forum of the human race. Of all posts, these are the most detestable, since they are posted for no tangible gain, but only to alter the context of other posts.

-General Battuta

[NGTM-1R]

Tabling the discussion for a month because no one agrees with you is not a valid tactic, Goober. Arguing that nothing good can come from ****posting is something that this very forum has repeatedly disproved. Complaining that personal attacks are rampant when your first and second posts on the subject singled out other users and accused them of ****posting and making arguments in bad faith is merely darkly amusing.

You cannot now escape the consequences of your inartful response merely because you wish to. HLP still isn't a Goober dictatorship.