[Italianmoose]

That does have the potential to go *horribly* wrong though - see WWII "Fast Battleships", like the HMS Hood. Could you train enough crew for that to be viable? The Tev philosophy in BP is to haemorrhage pilots, but would the Vasudans go in for the same?

[mosshadow]

That does have the potential to go *horribly* wrong though - see WWII "Fast Battleships", like the HMS Hood. Could you train enough crew for that to be viable? The Tev philosophy in BP is to haemorrhage pilots, but would the Vasudans go in for the same?

Haven't the Vasudans always been losing pilots ? Their fighters are the ones to die first in my experience.

[Aesaar]

Vasudan cruisers don't tend to carry anti-capital beam cannons.  They're primarily anti-strikecraft platforms.  Spinal beams are mostly a Terran thing.

Where the Terrans use cruisers as multi-role combatants, Vasudan fleet doctrine emphasizes the escort role, for which light beam cannons aren't all that useful.  There's also the fact that the SVas is quite big and power-hungry for a light beam cannon, so it's mostly used on destroyers as a secondary weapon.  It's closer to the TerSlash than it is to the SGreen and SBlue.

[-Sara-]

Vasudan cruisers don't tend to carry anti-capital beam cannons.  They're primarily anti-strikecraft platforms.  Spinal beams are mostly a Terran thing.

Where the Terrans use cruisers as multi-role combatants, Vasudan fleet doctrine emphasizes the escort role, for which light beam cannons aren't all that useful.  There's also the fact that the SVas is quite big and power-hungry for a light beam cannon, so it's mostly used on destroyers as a secondary weapon.  It's closer to the TerSlash than it is to the SGreen and SBlue.

But isn't all that beam-tech info you give there completely out of the window, when the Vasudans have completely reinvented and redefined the role and workings of their new beam cannons post-Capella?

[Aesaar]

Not really.  The only place the SVas is found in all of FS2 is on the Hatshepsut.  They don't use it at all on either of their two cruisers, one of which is new.  It's in stark contrast to Terran cruisers.  I mean, even the Fenris has a beam cannon, and the Aeolus has two.  They're horrible weapons, but they're there.  The SVas is used the same way the TerSlash is used on the Orion.

And by WiH, the Vasudans haven't overhauled their beam cannon arsenal anywhere near as much as the Terrans have theirs.  The BVas, SVas and VSlash still constitute the vast majority of their anticap beam arsenal.  Now, the Vasudan probably could put SVas on their new cruisers, but would they?  They don't use their cruisers in a way that makes them all that necessary.

[headdie]

Pairing up ships of a new generation of corvette would make for a devastating node denial system while making for a flexible and durable platform.

That does have the potential to go *horribly* wrong though - see WWII "Fast Battleships", like the HMS Hood. Could you train enough crew for that to be viable? The Tev philosophy in BP is to haemorrhage pilots, but would the Vasudans go in for the same?

Crew training is always a factor regardless of tactical and strategic doctrine.  The main issue with node denial is the need for advanced intelligence of an impending assault, in the case of a new Shivan offensive you will likely not have this in the first system(s) attacked so you still need tactics probably revolving around an attack orientated defense given the likelihood that your ships are forward focused in their firepower.

Also Node denial while having parallels in naval combat the timescale demonstrated is much faster with most ship types at best firing off 1 or 2 volleys from the main armament before going down or jumping out which is rarely enough to level a warship in a single encounter and if your ship is too badly damaged then you should have the opportunity to withdraw

[X3N0-Life-Form]

And by WiH, the Vasudans haven't overhauled their beam cannon arsenal anywhere near as much as the Terrans have theirs.  The BVas, SVas and VSlash still constitute the vast majority of their anticap beam arsenal.

Citation needed. As someone with a BP badge, you might have info that we don't, however us players haven't seen any of the new Vasudan warships, nor have much information on them (as far as I know). All we know is that older warships and their logistics ship are fitted with pulse weapons and energy flak, which I don't think allows us to draw conclusions regarding the Vasudan's current beam tech & doctrine.


That being said, it makes a good amount of sense. I think the FS2 era zod beams are amazing, and I can see them choosing to create ships that carry as many beams as their Terran counterparts rather than inventing a whole new beam system.
Fun FREDing exercice: replacing TerSlash & TerSlashBlue with VSlash on Terran corvettes. Alright, time to break out the ol' spreadsheet:
TerSlash damage per salvo: 4,116.00
TerSlashBlue: 5,747.70 (1.4 * TerSlash)
VSlash: 8,820.00 (2.14 * TerSlash & 1.53 * TerSlashBlue)

Alright, time to open up FRED & see how the beam switchero goes

[Mars]

Not equivalent weapons, clearly. Both the Terran beams are generally carried by corvettes in a set of four, SVas in a pair. Its like comparing the two engines of an F-15 with the single engine of an F-16. Clearly the TerSlash in the way it is typically deployed has just slightly under equivalent damage (in so far as such things in BP are hard numbers) compared to the SVas and the TerSlashBlue outperforms it by nearly half as much again.

I see no reason not to assume that if in fact Aesaar is correct, these weapons are mounted in the same platforms as in FS2 - the Vasudan fleet might still be made up mostly of Sobeks and Hatshepsuts. Their newest warships could well mount hitherto unseen beam weapons.

[-Sara-]

And by WiH, the Vasudans haven't overhauled their beam cannon arsenal anywhere near as much as the Terrans have theirs.  The BVas, SVas and VSlash still constitute the vast majority of their anticap beam arsenal.

Citation needed. As someone with a BP badge, you might have info that we don't, however us players haven't seen any of the new Vasudan warships, nor have much information on them (as far as I know). All we know is that older warships and their logistics ship are fitted with pulse weapons and energy flak, which I don't think allows us to draw conclusions regarding the Vasudan's current beam tech & doctrine.


That being said, it makes a good amount of sense. I think the FS2 era zod beams are amazing, and I can see them choosing to create ships that carry as many beams as their Terran counterparts rather than inventing a whole new beam system.
Fun FREDing exercice: replacing TerSlash & TerSlashBlue with VSlash on Terran corvettes. Alright, time to break out the ol' spreadsheet:
TerSlash damage per salvo: 4,116.00
TerSlashBlue: 5,747.70 (1.4 * TerSlash)
VSlash: 8,820.00 (2.14 * TerSlash & 1.53 * TerSlashBlue)

Alright, time to open up FRED & see how the beam switchero goes

That is what I tried to say, you worded it a lot better than I did. Also, FRED armanent probably means little, if the team simply didn't overhaul or add the new Vasudan ships and equipment yet simply because they weren't needed yet.

[crizza]

Esarai's Emperor and Phoenix Rising models look very good with Vasudanized textures.

I think I saw a phoenix rising in one of the vids used as logistic ship...

No, it was rescaled Tanen carrier.

As for new vasudan fleet from Esarai's ships, I was thinking about Emperor as vasudan destroyer/battleship as well. I hope that texture work is not just simply recolor of existing textures, as it would not be enough. Maybe some screenshots ?

No way, this is never a rescaled Tanen, the old logistics ship, yes, but that, nope^^
Somethings wrong on my end, but theres the vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpA8XmMAS9k

[Nyctaeus]

Esarai's Emperor and Phoenix Rising models look very good with Vasudanized textures.

I think I saw a phoenix rising in one of the vids used as logistic ship...

No, it was rescaled Tanen carrier.

As for new vasudan fleet from Esarai's ships, I was thinking about Emperor as vasudan destroyer/battleship as well. I hope that texture work is not just simply recolor of existing textures, as it would not be enough. Maybe some screenshots ?

No way, this is never a rescaled Tanen, the old logistics ship, yes, but that, nope^^
Somethings wrong on my end, but theres the vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpA8XmMAS9k

It must be some new, refreshed version of outro cutscene. I remember they used rescaled Tanen carrier with less amount of turrets as logistics ship and it was present in the outro.

http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Emperor - This is new vasudan vessel present here. Tanen was either removed or there is completly different fleet present here. The ship present here is probably new vasudan destroyer.

I can't wait to see it in action

[Italianmoose]

That does have the potential to go *horribly* wrong though - see WWII "Fast Battleships", like the HMS Hood. Could you train enough crew for that to be viable? The Tev philosophy in BP is to haemorrhage pilots, but would the Vasudans go in for the same?

Haven't the Vasudans always been losing pilots ? Their fighters are the ones to die first in my experience.

Only because the AI can't fly Although, with anti-fighter beams around Vasudan ships are a liabity.

I can also see glass-cannon capital ships spending a lot of time in drydock each time they get beat up. Node denial to me means slow (tough) ships with very directional firepower that can jump rapidly, most of which doesn't sound very "Vasudan". Although I think like a human which doesn't help XD

[Darius]

Node denial can be thought of as a wall of pikemen defending a pass, supported by archers/artillery +/- fast light cavalry for flanks.

So we may be seeing flak-heavy artillery/ssm corvettes supported by strike bombers.

If that's the direction that we'll be taking, of course.

[mosshadow]

Node denial can be thought of as a wall of pikemen defending a pass, supported by archers/artillery +/- fast light cavalry for flanks.

So we may be seeing flak-heavy artillery/ssm corvettes supported by strike bombers.

If that's the direction that we'll be taking, of course.

They could also use Meson Bombs as backup. if the node is overrun they can jump in a bomb remotely and detonate it. Even if they jump off target the blast zone is pretty big. Meson Bombs might be expensive but they were able to make 14 meson bombs for use in the Bastion and Neirid to blow up the nodes, so it does not take very long to construct them.

[qwadtep]

That does have the potential to go *horribly* wrong though - see WWII "Fast Battleships", like the HMS Hood. Could you train enough crew for that to be viable? The Tev philosophy in BP is to haemorrhage pilots, but would the Vasudans go in for the same?

"Fast Battleships" were mostly remodeled WWI battlecruisers. The old paradigm was deemed a dead end and the new paradigm never really had the chance to develop since it was immediately rendered obsolete by air power. The Kongou-class fared quite well in the Pacific though, certainly more than proper "battleships" like the Yamato...

The closest thing in BP is probably the Hecate, of which class one is fittingly named the Hood.

[niffiwan]

I thought there was a distinct difference between BattleCruisers (e.g. HMS Hood) and Fast Battleships (e.g. Queen Elizabeth & Iowa classes).  i.e. unlike battlecruisers, fast battleships didn't sacrifice armour or armament in order to achieve their speed.

[Darius]

I read that by WW2 Hood had been rearmoured and refurbished  to the point where she was pretty much equivalent to a fast battleship.

EDIT: as qwadtep noted, they were upgraded battle cruisers

[niffiwan]

I think it was up-armoured after design but before completion in many ways *except* for deck armour. It also appears there's some debate about the designation. The same page also says that the Hood missed out on planned-for-1941 upgrades which had been applied to other ships, I presume these would have included increased deck armour.

I guess I need to review all the fast battleships/battlecruisers, in retrospect my point was that there were several significant classes of ship originally designed  as fast battleships.  I don't actually know if the number is significant enough such that the statement that "most" were upgraded battlecruisers is incorrect or not.

/pedant
/offtopic

(sorry!)

[Darius]

I guess I need to review all the fast battleships/battlecruisers,

Actually that probably also applies in my case. Thank for the extra information, pedantry is a good thing!

[mosshadow]

Is speed really that necessary? All cap ships are moving at 20-35 but mostly rely on their FTL drives to go anywhere far.