Author Topic: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?  (Read 16577 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
That's the best comment so far, cmap. A very little variation on your ideas could have the Vishnans trying for the Zods to become the next Brahmans and the Shivans trying to get the humans to be the next Brahmans. It's an idea first expressed in B5, and they have already promised they won't go for that kind of narrative. It is also possible that the Vishnans were at some particular moment also trying for humans to go for it, but once Sol was polluted with GTVA's own jingoism they ordered the cull. The shivans however somewhat engineered this GTA's insertion to Sol by blowing up Capella, and are somewhat more interested in what comes off of this struggle and thus are not obeying the cull call.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
OK, so my general theory WRT Shambhala is that, regardless of what Shambhala actually is, it represents the Vishnan's coup de grace in the evident proxy war that we are currently on the wrong end of in WiH; and that the Vishnans are not, contrary to their claims, a formal dual to the Shivans; that they are simply the result of intelligent life evolving under the selection pressure imposed by the existent of blind, omnipotent god-killers.

Integrating this with the theory found on the Great Darkness thread on this forums, that the GD represents some fundamental, ancient corruption of sentience expressed through the Nagari network, and that the Shivans exist with the primary purpose of keeping any budding civilisations from poking too hard into this matter by terminating them with extreme prejudice before they provide it with a prime vector into the physical realm, we obtain the idea that the Vishnans do not, cannot comprehend the thing at the threshold; that their masterplan will simply result in some arbitrarily-terrible apocalypse as it finds the conduit it has been blindly seeking.

And whilst the Shivans do not, cannot care about the Vishnans' pretensions to godhood, they have noticed and have prepared for this. What is an apatic anima? Battuta's summary was that it amounts to Shivan black ops, and that is certainly consistent with its present actions: finding and turning to its advantage the trump card of the Vishnan-thralled Elders, and mopping up that pesky GTVA while they're at it.

/drunkpost
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 07:30:53 pm by Phantom Hoover »
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Offline BritishShivans

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
oh god i've been found out

phantom's post is what i seriously think about the BP stuff

how

 

Offline An4ximandros

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Integrating this with the theory found on the Great Darkness thread on this forums, that the GD represents some fundamental, ancient corruption of sentience expressed through the Nagari network, ...
2 Qs here.

1st: Which thread had that?
2nd: What the hell does that (the italic) mean? Can you elaborate?

I am interested in learning more about this interpretation.

Sorry if it should be obvious, I am tired and about 30mins away from sleep. :p

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
The thread is just called 'Great Darkness (spoilers)'; it started shortly after the release of Tenebra. The theory is that, whatever the GD is — a weapon, an experiment gone wrong, a BreenGrub style infectious meme — it was left behind by some precursor entity, it can be triggered by unwary exploration of the Nagari network and especially by directly investigating the GD itself, and that one of the goals of the Shivans' behaviour is to keep it contained in the network by aggressively eliminating any potential prey.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Yeah I kinda remember that thread. Really crazy ideas were floating there, regarding the ancient apocalypse and so on.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Maybe Shambhala involves "uploading" humanity and/or vasudans into a purely local (as in, non-multiversal), possibly artificially-created-via-Shambhala Nagari network, thus protecting them from conventional Shivan aggression (and/or conventional Shivan attention/protocol, perhaps) and the GD at the same time? I gather that the GD is multiversal in nature, so a Nagari network that is physically isolated (not firewalled as much as totally disconnected from) from the multiverse might be an acceptable solution.

Granted, there are a number of puzzle pieces that still don't fit that notion, but where does speculation and theorizing go without brainstorming?

---------

I'm also rather confused about the seeming paradox that Shambhala is the Vishnan victory-by-proxy, but the Shivans want Shambhala to succeed and the GTVA to be destroyed (or that Shambhala's success/partial success is in some way necessary to destroy the GTVA). So if both sides want Shambhala to succeed in some way, why would the Vishnans still insist on a cull, if even a partial victory/vindication were still very possible? And why would the Shivans totally ignore it if they were the ones that insisted on the cull in the first place (UT/UT2)? Why would the Shivans have insisted on the cull (UT/UT2) when they intentionally decided to not cull humanity/vasudans during Capella?
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Offline The E

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Quote
Shambhala is the Vishnan victory-by-proxy

Is it?

EDIT: Shambhala is a project that the Vishnans probably know about. They may even have given approval for it. But that does not necessarily mean that it can only be used in a way that benefits the Vishnan side of things.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 05:08:59 am by The E »
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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
But doesn't that imply that the Elders are no longer compromised by the Vishnans and their influence? But given the events of UT2 and their subsequent demand that Laporte be handed over to them, the Vishnans still seem to be actively influencing the Council. So why would they back/approve Shambhala but not bother to ensure that it isn't used against their interests? Short of the Fedayeen swooping in and hijacking Shambhala as soon as it's finished (and somehow knowing exactly how it works/what it does/how to use it differently for a different goal), I don't see how the Shambhala endgame fits the current position of the various factions.

Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Quote
Shambhala is the Vishnan victory-by-proxy

Is it?

EDIT: Shambhala is a project that the Vishnans probably know about. They may even have given approval for it. But that does not necessarily mean that it can only be used in a way that benefits the Vishnan side of things.

have you just canon'd my brilliant theory


creys
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Offline leoben

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Salty asked the right questions!

For all the brainstorming and speculation we're doing here, we don't clearly understand the dynamics between the Vs and Ss. Keep in mind - Ken told Laporte she 'has to destroy the GTVA'. Not simply get to somewhere in GTVA space. He wants the GTVA gone. Does that include having the Vasudans gone too? Whatever the Ken entity is, how much of Bosch is preserved in it? How much did Bosch really hate the Vasudans? How much was the NTF just a cover for something much more important?

The Vs have gone quiet, we know that. At least as far as the UEF and the Elders are concerned. The Ss are in some sort of a holding pattern? Why? Who stopped them? Was there really a cull order? Was that by the Vs? But think back to AoA. The Vs told Bei - you do not belong here. And they also said - spread wisdom and bring enlightenment to your race. The Vs were fully aware what the GTVA's intentions were. So let's not kid ourselves - speculating that the Vs 'changed their minds' about humans and ordering the cull would be very silly, and not giving any credit to near-omnipotent beings, who know pretty much everything humans do and then some.

But then what happened? Something changed between AoA and WiH that I don't think we understand or know about yet. I don't at least.

Who is talking to Laporte really - who do they represent? Is she simply being manipulated?

Was she really talking to some echo or shadow of Bei in the last mission? Or not even that, simply being manipulated again? Or was it really Bei, and she got it all wrong and is headed in the 'wrong direction' for humanity?

I have more questions, but I'm starting to sound silly and boring, so I'll stop. Love the discussion though.

 

Offline Husker

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
My guess is that the Vishnans do not know about the GD but the Shivans do. It's possible that Shambala has the potential to provide that bridge the GD needs to enter our universe. The Shivans may have touched Henriksson's mind and then she realized what could happen to everything. But it's possible Project Morpheus has an impact on this discussion. Until we find out more about Morpheus, I say we wait and see.

 

Offline An4ximandros

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Ken reveals in the last mission that it is the GTVA's end-state contingency: Purge Sol of Nagari sensitives.

It is why there was never going to be peace. The GTVA sees Nagari as a threat. The UEF embraces it. (Mando's comment to Noemi (I forget the mission, it's the one you receive mail from him.))
The Vasudans may see Nagari the same way as the UEF does, and that could be why they are not too excited about the war.

The GTVA is well deep into willing genocide territory if that is what it would take to end the Nagari threat.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 09:50:17 pm by An4ximandros »

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Purge Sol of Nagari sensitives.
You misspelled "humanity".
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Offline niffiwan

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
 :jaw:

That bad?  Yeah, I agree with Steele, I don't want to know about Contingency Morpheus.
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Offline Darius

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Purge Sol of humanity, got it Command!

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
(It's 'purge Sol of those under Vishnan influence', of course.)
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Ken reveals in the last mission that it is the GTVA's end-state contingency: Purge Sol of Nagari sensitives.

It is why there was never going to be peace. The GTVA sees Nagari as a threat. The UEF embraces it. (Mando's comment to Noemi (I forget the mission, it's the one you receive mail from him.))
The Vasudans may see Nagari the same way as the UEF does, and that could be why they are not too excited about the war.

The GTVA is well deep into willing genocide territory if that is what it would take to end the Nagari threat.

Why would purging Nagari-sensitives be a good thing, even from the GTVA's perspective? If anything, NS's represent the Alliance's best way to get reliable intel on the Shivans (and Vishnans), which they have known to be extremely important ever since Capella. Nagari-sensitives being vulnerable to manipulation by the Vishnans (not so much by the Shivans, seeing as they have never bothered with doing that, and their very methodology of xenocide of any species that fails to meet its criteria ((as opposed to influencing any species straying from said criteria back to tolerable behavior)) is contrary to such a practice) doesn't seem to be the kind of threat that can only be dealt with through genocide--rather than publicly acknowledged as an alien threat that necessitates imprisonment/supervised treatment.

I thought Morpheus was about eliminating the local Vishnan influence/control over Sol (and potentially elsewhere, but with the main focus being on the existing, major problem in Sol) by effectively eliminating the influence of the major Nagari-sensitives in Sol (as mentioned by careful campaigns to discredit Elders--not purge galaxy of Elders). I had imagined it being something like the use of Nagari "firewalls" or some other kind of extensive, wide-area effect on Nagari-sensitives or local Nagari access/activity.


Purge Sol of Nagari sensitives.
You misspelled "humanity".

I don't get it. How could they possibly purge Sol of humanity? The GTA leadership is already facing massive public dissent for the war itself. Enacting some kind of system-wide genocide seems like the kind of thing that almost no one in the Alliance would ever actually do, and that even attempting it would end in almost instant failure from massive public outcry and everyone refusing to carry out such insane orders.

The other meaning your statement has, though, makes a bit more sense--ALL humans are Nagari-sensitives--but that still raises the question of what separates random Tev #34392348 from Elder Mandho, and why Morpheus is only a real concern if the war goes poorly rather than a contingency that will have to be enacted in some form regardless of how well the war might go.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 10:47:15 pm by SaltyWaffles »
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Offline Husker

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
That's why I think Morpheus has more to do with this than we currently know. They both have something to do with each other, Morpheus can't be to eliminate Nagari sensitives in Sol, how could they tell a sensitive from a non-sensitive? Eliminating Vishnan influence can't be it's entirety either, again, no way to really tell who's who.

 It may possibly be somewhat Shivan influenced in some way, in order to prevent Shambala from allowing the GD to get in our universe. They may in their own way be protecting the universe from getting eaten by the GD. These two contingencies must be related somehow.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 12:39:05 am by Husker »

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Purge Sol of Nagari sensitives.
You misspelled "humanity".

I don't get it. How could they possibly purge Sol of humanity?
Seriously ?

The point. You missed it.

It was "Purging humanity of Nagari sensitives".
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

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bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
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batwota: oh right :P
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MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie