[General Battuta]

The goal of versioning is to prevent complaints when new MVPs break old mods. That's why they aren't a community repository - to save the immense workload and support overhead that would come along with being a community repository.

[Mongoose]

But my fundamental argument here is that we should devise a means by which updating the MVPs wouldn't be expected to break old mods, within the realm of sanity.  In other words, create a methodology for uploading them that maintains certain basic structures/processes, so that external mods can reference them with a reasonable expectation of continued function in the future.  It's obviously not a simple problem to solve, but I think it's certainly a worthwhile one, because it would essentially put an end to the support nightmares that you're referencing here.

[General Battuta]

I don't think it would. That process would require testing, which is unfeasible given the scope of legacy content.

If there were a trivial way to do what you're suggesting I think it would've been done. Of course, it's worth pointing out that there are apparently very few consequential changes between the 3.6.12s and the 2014s, so to some degree what you're suggesting has been done.

[Mongoose]

Yes, that part is certainly a good sign.  And I wasn't really trying to imply that we should attempt to stuff the genie back in the bottle and come up with some framework that would automatically work with the vast majority of past mods.  I think a far more feasible path forward would be to settle on certain policies or structures, with the expectation that they'd be maintained going forward, and then make an effort to update any currently non-compliant campaigns to play nice with them.

[General Battuta]

What specifics do you have in mind? The problem I see is that we're not worried about known problems, we're worried about problems we don't know we don't know about.

[The Dagger]

Sorry being a newb here but what exactly in the mediavps is that can cause mod breakage? From a model point of view I know that turrets, firepoints, subsystems and debris have to be kept as close to the original as possible to avoid problems. I guess maybe some filename changes could be a problem but is there anything else?

[General Battuta]

Textures get pulled, table structures were altered way back in the day, weapon effects are cut or renamed, so on.

[Mongoose]

What specifics do you have in mind? The problem I see is that we're not worried about known problems, we're worried about problems we don't know we don't know about.

Good ol' unknown unknowns.

I'm not incredibly well-versed in the modding realm, so I don't know that I have many specifics, but I guess the main thing I'm thinking of is avoiding a situation similar to the removal of the upgraded tilemaps with the 3.6.12 release.  I understand the justification behind it, particularly that the current upgraded models no longer used them, but I do think that was a situation where past modders had a reasonable expectation that those would remain available: they were upgraded versions of retail assets, which on the face of it is exactly what the MVPs are for.  I may be misremembering things, but I think the issue there was that the upgraded tilemaps had had changed names from their retail equivalents, so that there weren't any fall-backs for the mods attempting to reference them.  That's the sort of issue that I think can be foreseen, and dealt with accordingly.

[mjn.mixael]

So, I caught up on this thread and laid down to take a nap for about two hours. I kid you not, this was my dream...

I was alone in some place covered in snow and ice and I had a laptop out on the frozen ice. I ran out there and sat near it to change/update some data that I was responsible for (I cannot remember what the data was in the dream), while a pack of wolves wearing red, orange, and black mixed life vests closed in on me and were super angry. All the while, the ice around me was breaking and I was sinking into the freezing water with the laptop.

I promise you, I am not making this up. Interpret as you wish.

Also.. textures were pulled for the whole redundancy of downloaded data thing. So... We just can't win.

[Bobboau]

correct me if I am wrong, I might be because I have not run the launcher in a long time, but doesn't the launcher provide a list of mods to install? does it not deal with mod dependencies?
maybe what is needed is an ability to mark a mod as a support package so it does not show up in the list, but can be used by other mods?
I feel like I'm horribly out of touch.

[niffiwan]

Sorry, no.  The launcher doesn't install anything.  The "installer" does deal with certain mod dependencies (i.e. within a group of mods like FSport), but it doesn't deal with the mediavps dependency.

[Bobboau]

ok, well, then I think we've identified where we should apply our resources.

[General Battuta]

Dependency handling in the installer would be a nice feature.

Also.. textures were pulled for the whole redundancy of downloaded data thing. So... We just can't win.

Here it does feel like you can win. If keeping the smaller redundant textures in the MVPs allows them to skip downloading an entire set of legacy MVPs, at least.

[mjn.mixael]

You are overlooking that having to download several mediavps is a one time deal. Whenever the mediavps are updated, everyone has a big download. Removing things like the unused tiles makes the update download smaller.

No we are not going to figure out how to only have users download updated data with VP patches or whatever crazy to support idea people may have.

[General Battuta]

I don't follow. It seems like the MVPs would have to be updated and completely redownloaded dozens of times before those extra tiles cost you more bandwidth than downloading an entire set of legacy MVPs.

[niffiwan]

Is it just a difference in view between

a) existing users (who have already downloaded the legacy mediavps when they were current)
b) new users (for whom legacy mediavps are a new & separate download)

[Bobboau]

I also have a feeling I know the answer, but I think the option should be mentioned, what about compatibility packs, something that sits on top of the current media vp to replicate the old version.

I really don't like this idea, but I wanted to hear how it stacks up.

[Mongoose]

I don't follow. It seems like the MVPs would have to be updated and completely redownloaded dozens of times before those extra tiles cost you more bandwidth than downloading an entire set of legacy MVPs.

Besides that, a theoretical legacy pack like the tilemaps presumably wouldn't change between releases, since no one's working on those assets anymore anyway.  So in that case it's a single relatively-small download once, versus having to download and/or keep around multiple complete MVP releases.  Seems like an easy choice.

[mjn.mixael]

I'm not sure you've thought the idea all the way through. It is a good idea.

However, to get similar and reliable functionality that we have now, we would need a legacy pack for each update that allows each update to function as an older version. Assets are not the only issue between releases. As SCP adds features (new tbms, table features to replace asset hacks, etc.), those are changed or removed in favor of the more modular design. HUD is good example of something table based that has changed several times over the last couple releases. These Legacy Packs would need to restore functionality to 3.6.10, 3.6.12, and eventually 2014 for older mods to receive the full benefit. And even then, how do you install something like that?

Perhaps you were only thinking of assets and not other types of version Legacy rollbacks. In that case, the tiles pack is already available... nothing else critical has been removed unless you really want that old Mentu model. (Actually, for upgraded models that are replaced with upgrades.. that may not be too far fetched.)

Something I haven't seen discussed yet is that even if we did change to a sole 'MediaVPs' install folder now. We have just about 4 years of mods that now rely on 'mediavps_3612' and 'mediavps_2014'. These are, arguably, the mods that most players will be playing and until the mod authors update them, we'll have the same issues as now.. just in reverse.

Also, I have continued to follow the thread that spurred this.. and I'm not convinced the guy is even following instructions correctly. It makes me wonder if this issue has only presented because of one loud user having issues where 40 quiet users are enjoying the game already.

[Phantom Hoover]

If you alias the 3612 and 2014 folders to the mediavps one wouldn't that solve the problem?