Author Topic: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)  (Read 1963 times)

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Offline Black Wolf

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Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
EDIT - Images for context HERE.

Wow - I would not have guessed anywhere near 15k tris fro that model. I think tile mapping is what kills the detail a lot of the time. Also, in order to prevent checker-patterns of doom, people often use maps at way large scales, leading the models to seem small.

I know tiling has its place, But TBH I think in this case it's doing you more harm than good, based on those pictures alone, of course.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 07:23:05 am by Black Wolf »
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Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
I don't have capabilitys to provide my models better mapping. To uvmapp a model, I need a dedicated texture artist and proper mapper. Only Galemp and VA have abilities to make a mapping and textures what can fit the expectations, but the are both busy as hell. FSF mapped this model, I'm made up with current mapping, hovewer these models will be improved in the future. I'm going to find someone who can do a good textures and better mapping for my models... But not now. Maybe for the sequel of the Shadow Genesis. Anyway, I've reached the goal - I have complete terran fleet for my mod, that's the most important.

Otherwise, most of the details are plates - part of the Moonred's modeling style.
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
I don't have capabilitys to provide my models better mapping. To uvmapp a model, I need a dedicated texture artist and proper mapper. Only Galemp and VA have abilities to make a mapping and textures what can fit the expectations, but the are both busy as hell. FSF mapped this model, I'm made up with current mapping, hovewer these models will be improved in the future. I'm going to find someone who can do a good textures and better mapping for my models... But not now. Maybe for the sequel of the Shadow Genesis. Anyway, I've reached the goal - I have complete terran fleet for my mod, that's the most important.

Otherwise, most of the details are plates - part of the Moonred's modeling style.

WTH?

There are many more accomplished texture artists around here... RgaNoris, Sab0o,.. heck.. I could even do it...

Not saying any of these people will do it... just that there are many more than just those 2.... In fact, I like Galemp and he's pretty dang talented, but I would not put him at the same texturing level as a guy like VA.. so your sentence just boggles my mind...

Also, your defense of tile mapping finally makes sense..

EDIT: Forgot Brand-X and probably some others too...
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 02:49:24 pm by mjn.mixael »
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Offline Droid803

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
He's right about one thing though.
Every single texture artist is busy as hell.
If you wait for people to UVmap and texture your models you can kiss goodbye to a release date within the next fifty years.

You absolutely MUST UVmap and texture your own models (and have plenty of spare time to boot) if you don't want to do tilemapping and want a sane release date. Such is the truth. You can safely assume that absolutely no one is willing to do either of those for you, ever. If you can't do it yourself, then you can only tilemap, or use already-released assets.

Do you know how many mods have been delayed or died due to waiting for assets?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 03:42:45 pm by Droid803 »
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
Oh.. I'm not arguing that at all... I was just extremely surprised at his complete underestimation of the talents of the community.
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Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
RgaNorris, Sab0o... Sorry but their texturing style is not in my taste. Rga's Sath for example - it's candyish and cartoonish as hell. Sab0o's Artemises - the same. Call me the ignorant but I have specyfic definition of good looking HTLs. Good looking HTL = small amount of author's artistic invension in the textures. Galemp and VA's textures are strict remade of orginal textures with standard FS feeling. I saw old version of the Typhon with terran lights textures and I've just fell apart. Galemp fixed it all.

And I know most of the talented people here. Maybe I fargot about a few good artists like FSK. I'm not dispute skills of RGA, Sab0o, or yours Mixael but your texturing style don't fit to my mod. This is not another BP or WoD.

And I'm also don't wanna delay release of Shadow Genesis. This is the same thing as in BWO or MT. Everyone told authors of this mods "Release it without HTL models!", but they want to wait until HTLs are complete. I don't want to wait for good texture artist. I have models, I need them and I want finish my mod, so I will do it even with capships mapped with older methods. If a few tilemapped capships are problem for you - don't play.
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
He's right about one thing though.
Every single texture artist is busy as hell.
If you wait for people to UVmap and texture your models you can kiss goodbye to a release date within the next fifty years.

You absolutely MUST UVmap and texture your own models (and have plenty of spare time to boot) if you don't want to do tilemapping and want a sane release date. Such is the truth. You can safely assume that absolutely no one is willing to do either of those for you, ever. If you can't do it yourself, then you can only tilemap, or use already-released assets.

Do you know how many mods have been delayed or died due to waiting for assets?
Quoted for truth.
To use an example from that one silly project I've invested a lot of time in: I've heard it repeated quite a bit that Wings of Dawn has 'low quality assets'. I attribute most of these complaints to my lack of any real texturing talent. I just don't have much of a feel for it. Not to mention that due to the large amount of assets I simply couldn't afford to spend months on a single ship&textures if I actually wanted to release the damn thing. So with all the texture artists busy, what choice did I have? I could either texture most of it myself and get stuff done, or hope that I could somehow find a talented texture artist willing to do a lot of work.
Now Sab0o has been a total baller and did a great texture job recently on a ship for WoD. And the great Axem himself couldn't believe that the mesh itself was made by me. Leaving me once again to the conclusion that my ship meshes are pretty decent and that they just need a good texture job to shine properly.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
Actually, MT didn't die because of HTL models, nobody ever considered we could also do that. What killed it was lack of motivation, and sadly, just that. Though there was a HTL Chimera in the works (almost finished), if missions were done before it, we'd have gotten the demo out with a low poly one.
While tiling looks worse than UVmaps, it has an adventage of being fast and simple. Inferno decided to go with tiles on capships exactly because it didn't wanted to end up like BWO, and as a result, it was moving at a suprising pace until it almost ran out of (Terran) capships to HTL. BTW, if somebody would like to help with texturing (UVmapping is done, no need to worry about that) fighters for Inferno, we could use some help with that.

 

Offline Pred the Penguin

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
*snip*
Very nice skyboxes, have they appeared hereabouts before?
The part of the planet that's visible is very nice, too. :D

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
I think he's using the Earth Defense nebulae

 

Offline Zacam

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
RgaNorris, Sab0o... Sorry but their texturing style is not in my taste. ...

And I know most of the talented people here. Maybe I fargot about a few good artists like FSK. I'm not dispute skills of RGA, Sab0o, or yours Mixael but your texturing style don't fit to my mod. ...

...

You know what else makes a good texture artist vs. a great texture artist? When they can realize that they have the avenue of being creative, and when they don't and being able to work in either.

If you don't like the creative licenses that they take on something, that's fine. But that doesn't mean you can't still approach them and say "I have a specific style, it's NOT up for re-interpretation, are you willing to help me get it done as I see it should be?" and they'll either go with it, or pass.

But to reject them out of hand, to reject their skill and knowledge because you have a different opinion on their "style" without even considering asking them anyway and seeing if they are willing and able to work within your conventions ... I'm sorry, but that's shooting yourself in the foot there.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
Betrayal is an FS traditionalist. He didn't like many awesome things just because they weren't "FS-ish enough" (IE. mimicking outdated, over 10 years old style in just about everything).

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
Betrayal is an FS traditionalist. He didn't like many awesome things just because they weren't "FS-ish enough" (IE. mimicking outdated, over 10 years old style in just about everything).
Well in that case I will declare his opinion null and void :p
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
It's not true FS style unless it's tilemapped.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
Betrayal is an FS traditionalist. He didn't like many awesome things just because they weren't "FS-ish enough" (IE. mimicking outdated, over 10 years old style in just about everything).

So wait, let me get this straight; you're saying that attempting something the nature of the game we're all still here for is automatically bad.

If you're declaring your FS apostasy straight up, the door is that way, don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out. :P
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
Well, I'm not here for FS anyway, retail version seemed rather medicore for me (inferior to Wing Commander, that's for sure). It was BP: AoA that convinced me to care about FS universe (Inferno was also nice, as it introduced me to modding). When I started modding, I planned to someday do a TC outside of FS universe.
While making models in the nature of FS2 is a good idea, there's absolutely no reason to be limited by it. Taking creative liberty with remakes and new models, while keeping them reasonably close to the original, is something I support. And new models don't have to strictly follow the old FS2 style (Startcomm's models are a great example of a new Terran style, which works well in FS universe), and especially not campaigns and writing. Betrayal would prefer everything to adhere to FS2 style as closely as old Inferno did, but IMHO, there's a limited number of ways to make a FS2 style campaign, and new ideas are also needed.

 

Offline Hades

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
Well, I'm not here for FS anyway, retail version seemed rather medicore for me (inferior to Wing Commander, that's for sure). It was BP: AoA that convinced me to care about FS universe (Inferno was also nice, as it introduced me to modding). When I started modding, I planned to someday do a TC outside of FS universe.
While making models in the nature of FS2 is a good idea, there's absolutely no reason to be limited by it. Taking creative liberty with remakes and new models, while keeping them reasonably close to the original, is something I support. And new models don't have to strictly follow the old FS2 style (Startcomm's models are a great example of a new Terran style, which works well in FS universe), and especially not campaigns and writing. Betrayal would prefer everything to adhere to FS2 style as closely as old Inferno did, but IMHO, there's a limited number of ways to make a FS2 style campaign, and new ideas are also needed.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
It's not true FS style unless it's tilemapped.

:lol: so true

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
Well, I'm not here for FS anyway, retail version seemed rather medicore for me (inferior to Wing Commander, that's for sure). It was BP: AoA that convinced me to care about FS universe (Inferno was also nice, as it introduced me to modding). When I started modding, I planned to someday do a TC outside of FS universe.
While making models in the nature of FS2 is a good idea, there's absolutely no reason to be limited by it. Taking creative liberty with remakes and new models, while keeping them reasonably close to the original, is something I support. And new models don't have to strictly follow the old FS2 style (Startcomm's models are a great example of a new Terran style, which works well in FS universe), and especially not campaigns and writing. Betrayal would prefer everything to adhere to FS2 style as closely as old Inferno did, but IMHO, there's a limited number of ways to make a FS2 style campaign, and new ideas are also needed.
>Wing Commander being superior to FreeSpace


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Offline DaBrain

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Re: Texture talk (split from Celebration of FS)
You won't get around tile maps, but with a few additional poly loops to squeeze in a few different texture strips it's not that back actually.

However (and that is what isn't possible in FSO at the moment), you need to break up the tiled look a bit.  Dirt and scratches on a separate texture channel help a lot. Baked AO and lights also make a huge difference. (SSAO also helps.)

On top of that different glossy values make textures more realistic and help to give ships a better feeling of size.
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