[Spoon]

Since everyone knows and agrees that My opinion > Your opinion; I will grace you all with my super important opinion on this delicate subject.

I don't care oooone bit about depature from retail designs and such, but I'm not super fond of how the missile pods are right now. I'm not saying they should be retangular, but I feel that right now, they are too pointy.

So 509123 hours in paint later, this is my suggested change regarding the missile pod. Among several other very important suggestions.

[Lorric]

Yes, I like that better with the wider base both for being closer to retail and looking much more believable for the ship to be resting on and just for looking better retail or not. I think it makes a real difference.

[mjn.mixael]

Wait... the original didn't have a tophat?

[Dragon]

Yes, I like that better with the wider base both for being closer to retail and looking much more believable for the ship to be resting on and just for looking better retail or not. I think it makes a real difference.

It would be an improvement, but I'd rather see it fully rectangular, with two torpedo ports per pod. Here, the less streamlining, the better. Rectangular pods look simpler and more primitive, which, IMO, is a good thing for this ship. It has been designed shortly before the end of the Great War, with the sole purpose of carrying as many bombs as possible. The original design got that across very well. To put is simply, boxes are easy to manufacture.

The Ursa is not in any cbanims as far as I can remember.. but admittedly at 400+ anims in to my Mad-Awesome CBAnim career (do I get paid for that?), I can't recall it being in any.

I'm pretty sure there's an Ursa tech CB anim, for starters. I seem to recall there being at least one more, related to the plan to kill Lucifer. Though I may be misremembering that one.

That said, if you really are going to remake those scenes (and mainhalls), I would be willing to agree with more changes. However, care still needs to be taken not to spoil the model. Ursa is a quintessence of utilitarian, crude approach to bombing, and it should stay that way.

[Aesaar]

@ Aesaar First of all, faithfulness to retail should be the number one priority imo. And making a ship from a standpoint of the ship is **** seems like a very wrong position to do it from. This should be a labour of love to improve an existing model, not make sweeping changes to it because it's ****. Change too much, and if we use this as an example, it wouldn’t be the GTB Ursa anymore, it would be Aesaar’s GTB Ursa. It would have less and more Aesaar about it. It wouldn’t be the GTB Ursa made by it would be Aesaar’s version of it.

[...]

If you’re making a model as a personal project or to put into a mod that you’re creating by yourself, then the only opinion that matters is yours.

If you’re creating a model for a project that has a team, then the opinions of the team are also relevant.

If you’re creating a model that is for the Freespace Upgrade Project, then everyone’s opinion matters. Because it changes the core gameplay for all of us. You’re not making the model for yourself. You’re not making the model for a single mod. You’re making a model for the whole community, so it should meet with the community’s approval.

Faithfulness to retail might be your #1 priority, but you're not the one modeling anything, are you?  The #1 priority should be that a modeler has enough creative freedom that he actually wants to make an upgrade.  This is why I don't do work for FSU.  I don't want to just upgrade Volition models.  I want to make the ones I dislike into something I like.  This is why the StarSlayer versions of the FS2 GTVA fighters Hades and I are making aren't meant for the MVPs.  I don't want to make Volition's Herc2, and I don't think Hades wants to make a carbon-copy of Volition's Ursa.

If I have to choose between getting a ship of mine into the MVPs or making a ship I'll actually like, I'll choose the latter every single time.

Until modelers start being paid, every single model made and posted here is a personal project.  There are no exceptions.  Whether or not a model is included in the MVPs is a community decision.  However, design choices concerning the model itself are made at the exclusive discretion of the modeler.  At no point in the process is a modeler required to care about your approval.  Seeing as how no one else cares enough to make their own Ursa, it's either this one or keeping the current MVPs one.  That is the only place where the community has a say.

If you don't like the direction a model is going, and the modeler has heard and dismissed your input, tough.  Make your own model.  You are entitled to nothing.

Who did he show it to on IRC exactly? People he knew would approve, his buddies, or everyone on IRC at the time? Now it’s been opened up to the whole community, and the trend is that the launchers would be better being changed to the look and function of the retail design. I can’t see this discussion on IRC. I question why even do IRC first at all when you could do it to the whole community, as it’s ultimately the whole community who should be deciding the fate of this model since that is who it is being created for.

What a wonderful attempt to delegitimize opinions you don't want to deal with.  If, as you say, everyone's opinion matters, then the opinions of people in #bp (where Hades presented it) matter just as much as those in this thread.  Deal with it.

Spoon: I actually quite like your modified version of the missile pod.

[Lorric]

What a wonderful attempt to delegitimize opinions you don't want to deal with.  If, as you say, everyone's opinion matters, then the opinions of people in #bp (where Hades presented it) matters just as much as those in this thread.  Deal with it.

I can't respond properly right now because I have to go, but I assure you I wasn't trying to do such a thing. I'll respond properly when I get the chance.

[Phantom Hoover]

I think the flat missile pods give the profile a really strong bottom edge, and that really works with the general concept of the model.

[swashmebuckle]

I like the spoon-refined pod best because it seems to echo the rest of the ship's angles better than the pointy one without being devoid of any interest like the retail one. Go Bears.

[Col.Hornet]

Hm, maybe you should stay with the angular bottom of the pods. Round ones are... even more inappropriate. What happened to the engines?

[Mongoose]

Can I just say that topics like this are why we can't have nice things?  And I say that as a guy who tends to value faithfulness to retail pretty strongly.*  Seriously, let's all take a massive chill pill and maybe wait for Hades to, y'know, actually make a single reply before going all ape****.

*(Amusingly I didn't even register that the part in question differed substantially from retail until it was pointed out.)

[Lorric]

@ Aesaar

Right, where were we...

This is gonna be easier than I thought it would be. The rest of your post, there's nothing for me to dispute there, I agree with you on all of it. And it also makes me see better where you're coming from I think.

About IRC, I wasn't trying to say anyone's opinion was worth less, the point I was trying to make was that if he exposed the Ursa to a favourable and or isolated segment of the community, then the response from there might be different to the response from the entire community. And that we can't actually see the IRC discussion, only the one in here. We don't know why Hades has gone in this direction, or why the people in IRC saw the change as superior to the retail model.

I wonder if there's a clash here between you thinking Hades' right to make the model however he pleases is being stepped on while we have felt as if our right to an opinion on the model is getting stepped on.

I can't speak for others, but as long as I (and everyone else) get a fair say in whether a model goes into the MVPs that's all I want. I wouldn't want him to be forced to make his model a certain way to fit in with the desires of the community.

[FrikgFeek]

The GTB Ursa appears in 1 CBrief in FS1, in act 3 M4, reaching the Zenith. And even then it's just a model of the Ursa with background text, probably not that hard to remake.

Also, Hades isn't even part of the BP team. If we were talking about Steve-O's or Aesaar's models maybe you'd have a point but why would #bp be biased towards Hades? It's hardly isolated or favourable in this case, it just happens that people who spend time there liked it more than people who browse the FSU forums. And neither group is representative of the community at large.

[mjn.mixael]

The GTB Ursa appears in 1 CBrief in FS1, in act 3 M4, reaching the Zenith. And even then it's just a model of the Ursa with background text, probably not that hard to remake.

Also, Hades isn't even part of the BP team. If we were talking about Steve-O's or Aesaar's models maybe you'd have a point but why would #bp be biased towards Hades? It's hardly isolated or favourable in this case, it just happens that people who spend time there liked it more than people who browse the FSU forums. And neither group is representative of the community at large.

If it's an FS1 or FS2 ani, I've remade it and have the source files. Hell, if it's a non-single-frame ani at 660x300, chances are that I made it and have the source files...

[Dragon]

Also, Hades isn't even part of the BP team. If we were talking about Steve-O's or Aesaar's models maybe you'd have a point but why would #bp be biased towards Hades? It's hardly isolated or favourable in this case, it just happens that people who spend time there liked it more than people who browse the FSU forums. And neither group is representative of the community at large.

IIRC, he might be a tester. They don't get a badge (I'm one too, though not a very active one). Also, BP in particular is biased towards "creative freedom", which is known since they let Aesar strip their most important models of nearly all of their distinctive features. It's exactly the place you'd want to go to when trying to "sell" a remake that drops an important aspect of the original. Fortunately, this community also has people who find the original designs shouldn't be meddled with.

[Phantom Hoover]

While Dragon is as usual being a jackass about this, it's definitely true that #bp is not a good indicator of the overall opinion about big changes to models. The Herc 2 'upgrade' got nothing but praise there from everyone except me, but when it was posted to the forums a lot more people thought it was too divergent from the original.

[-Norbert-]

Can anyone explain to my why some people in this discussion are being rude and/or insulting to each other over a model they had no hand in making themselves?

Just drop your opinion with a polite reasoning why you think so and be done with it. Getting all agitated over it will help noone. At best it's going to accomplish nothing and at worst it could end up with Hades stopping to read this thread and thus deprive yourself and us others of the chance to have some input on the development or it could even frustrate Hades into abondening this project alltogether.

I'm sure noone wants either of those things to happen, so please stay reasonable and polite.

[Col.Hornet]

I've never seen any thread where model creator did the "ragequit" so far. Of course, sometimes there were some ****storms but in the end people carry on. The whole point is that a lot of people are trying to force their own ideas. So far we said what we think about some parts of the model. Now I'm waiting for what hades has to say about it . At least some justification why did he choose to make parts like missile pods or side cannons that way.

[Nyctaeus]

This is actually very old problem regarding artistic freedom and following original lines. And it will continue till all canon ships have 2-3 alternate versions to match every taste.

I can understand the point of artistic freedom in case of alternate versions of existing ship, just like Hades and Aesaar presented in their Herc II... That is cool, but different than standard Herc II and it's quite hard to be acceptable as default HTL model in next MediaVPs release. And the reason is very simple. For example, torpedo racks of original Ursa were boxy, so making them the way that Hades did is exactly where artistic freedom breaks the rules of upgrading canon design. MVP models should improve original designs, not change it. That's the point of FSU. Personal preferences and tastes do not count here, no matter if new side cannons and torpedo racks of Ursa looks good or not.

Some of team members of some projects claimed their ideas as more important than than project original goals... And look how many archived projects we have today. Some of them exactly because of that.

[Dragon]

The whole point is that a lot of people are trying to force their own ideas.

With that I very much agree, with a caveat that "a lot of people" includes the modeler in this case. The point of FSU is not to invent new designs. It is to upgrade old ones. Ideally, we'd have feedback on what they originally intended the ship to be. Lacking that (concept art can help, but can sometimes be so different from the original that they're not much help), we have to guess off the original shape and textures. This requires a certain amount of creative work (and freedom that comes with it), but going overboard with it results in the model stopping being an upgrade and becoming a variant of the original at best. Figuring out which part of the design is not always easy, too. Ursa's guns could conceivably have been made triangular to save polies (small structures, large poly gain in comparison to round). Pods, on the other hand, almost certainly weren't (large structures, small poly gain compared to triangular).

Also, I wanted to say that artists are not gods, nor is "artistic vision" the greatest good for which one can abandon everything else. Just because something is pretty, hard to do or intricate doesn't mean it should not be criticized for flaws that it might have. That something took a lot of effort doesn't mean it's any good. It is particularly unpleasant to be told when that happens, but sometimes, even a lot of hard work might produce something that turns out not to be worth it. It happens and is a possibility every time one undertakes anything that requires hard work. Nobody is perfect, but with enough criticism, they can get pretty close. IMO, the critic/editor/feedback giver is just as important as the artist when it comes to creating something truly great, and negative feedback is more helpful than positive (the former indicates area of possible improvement, the latter indicate lack of such areas, if anything). A lot of people (some artists, but their fans too, perhaps even more often) seem to be taking negative criticism as a personal insult of some sort, but it's actually more useful than praise.

[The Dagger]

You don't like it, we know. You have lots of reasons, we know. You have already exercised your right to voice over your opinion. But Hades is doing the model and he will do as he pleases. If you don't think it qualifies for the Mediavps, you may exercised your right to ask for the model not to be included. But he has the right to experiment. If you have followed any of his other developments you'll see he often reworks his models quite a lot, so this WIP may change substantially. Being so visceral in your critique at this point isn't helping your cause, you are just being disruptive. Now can you exercised your right to remain silent so that we can move on?
And what's with the puritanism here? Hell, the blue Levies must be killing you if you think this is a big departure from the original. For me, there's not a big departure here. If he was doing something totally new and different and calling it an Ursa, I'd agree with you. But you won't even notice this change while helping those Ursa survive. And each time there's a new model it's the same thing. The Medusa? the pods shape is not good. The Deimos? too curvy.
If you guys have such a strong vision of :V: aesthetics and time to argue about it I recommend you to open your modeling program of choice and do something. I'm sure you want your opinion to be heard. But from a modeler point of view, a lot in this discussion strikes me as ungrateful nitpicking and complaining. The guy is gifting you hours of work and you hate him. Back-seat modeling is not a good thing. You are going beyond criticism. If I was Hades, I'd drop this.