Author Topic: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)  (Read 7459 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
You know, I do love that quote from Wired at the end.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
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[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
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[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

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[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
I love the fact that there is an offshoot to it called the 'Cannae Drive' - http://cannae.com/

Scotlands going to love that one...

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
The smart money is still on a measurement artifact. (I'm guessing thermal...?)

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
Quote
White proposes that the EM Drive’s thrust is due to virtual particles in the quantum vacuum that behave like propellant ions in magneto-hydrodynamical propulsion systems, extracting "fuel" from the very fabric of space-time

I for one am deeply concerned about the potential for abuse by Big Propulsion.  The fabric of space-time is a nonrenewable resource.  We all need to do our part to conserve energy and momentum so that reality will continue to exist for our children and grandchildren.

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
The smart money is still on a measurement artifact. (I'm guessing thermal...?)

I'm convinced that we all want it to work so much, that our collective will is bending reality and causing it to work.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 03:14:30 pm by Turambar »
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Offline Dragon

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
The smart money is still on a measurement artifact. (I'm guessing thermal...?)
The "smart money" on that has turned out to be fools money quite some time ago, just so you know. Thermal has been ruled out. Experimental error is highly unlikely, unless it's some sort of complex interference with measuring equipment (that would be itself very interesting). As far as I'm concerned, it's either an unknown source of error or an unknown source of thrust. Either way, it is a breakthrough, either for spaceflight or for measuring equipment design. :) The article sounds like they have yet to eliminate some possible causes of magnetic interference, but somehow I don't think that'll be it.

As it stands, all bets are off with regards to what it's actually doing. But we do know for certain that it is doing something. Indeed, the only reason I'm currently going into condensed matter physics instead of this is that our institute isn't doing anything related to the EM drive (totally not because I'll be able to tell people I work with a particle accelerator in a year or two if this works out :) ).

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
Thermal hasn't been ruled out. You're thinking of thermal convection effects inside the cavity.

The fact that thrust continues even when the power's turned off is pretty suggestive of test error.

Remember, guys, wanting something to work (I do!) is not reason to update all your hypotheses in favor. There's a lot more work to do before this looks viable.

 

Offline The E

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
It ultimately comes down to one thing: someone will have to strap this thing to a rocket and go around the moon or something. Until that's done, I will continue to be skeptical of this.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
Remember, guys, wanting something to work (I do!) is not reason to update all your hypotheses in favor.

It's actually a reason to be even more skeptical about it.

 

Offline z64555

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
Science was borne out of skepticism.  :p
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Of course EM drive development should be pursued, but personally I will believe it when I see it propelling a satellite, not before.
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Offline SypheDMar

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
Quote
White proposes that the EM Drive’s thrust is due to virtual particles in the quantum vacuum that behave like propellant ions in magneto-hydrodynamical propulsion systems, extracting "fuel" from the very fabric of space-time

I for one am deeply concerned about the potential for abuse by Big Propulsion.  The fabric of space-time is a nonrenewable resource.  We all need to do our part to conserve energy and momentum so that reality will continue to exist for our children and grandchildren.
I say the same thing about oil and gas!

 

Offline headdie

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
It ultimately comes down to one thing: someone will have to strap this thing to a rocket and go around the moon or something. Until that's done, I will continue to be skeptical of this.

I dont have the technical knowledge to even try to understand what should or should not be possible but this is the kind of thing that would settle things one way or another.  do this and then figure out the science behind it, I think it's time the moon got probed again.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
with the buzz floating around this thing, it seems it should be trivial to build one, launch it into space, turn it on, and see what happens to it's orbit. a million dollars and this thing is settled.
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Offline headdie

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
with the buzz floating around this thing, it seems it should be trivial to build one, launch it into space, turn it on, and see what happens to it's orbit. a million dollars and this thing is settled.

isnt this the kind of crazy thing that NASA, ESA and the likes was set up for in the first place? prove it can be done and then let private enterprise make money from it.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Of course EM drive development should be pursued, but personally I will believe it when I see it propelling a satellite, not before.
Well, so far the evidence was nothing short of extraordinary. :) It is being still checked for errors (as any extraordinary claims have to be), but this time, we haven't yet heard about any "loose cables", so to speak. Also, spacecraft propulsion might turn out to be one of the less important implications of the discovery. It interacted with White's warp field spectrometer in a rather interesting way (I believe there was a thread about this when it happened).
Thermal hasn't been ruled out. You're thinking of thermal convection effects inside the cavity.

The fact that thrust continues even when the power's turned off is pretty suggestive of test error.

Remember, guys, wanting something to work (I do!) is not reason to update all your hypotheses in favor. There's a lot more work to do before this looks viable.
Thermal effects in general has been extensively ruled out. People suggest them from time to time, but they were the first thing they checked. They tested the drive in vacuum, so no convection of any sort. I think that thermionic emission and thermal photons were ruled out as well (besides, if it worked based on that, it'd make it one mighty ion engine). I don't think that heating up the scale would cause it to indicate thrust (or that they would've missed an effect like that). "Thermal" is a pretty wide term, but since there was a positive vacuum test, it leaves you with relatively few options. All of them would be exciting in their own right, BTW, since the indicated thrust is far more than ion and electrothermal engines currently in use.

Thrust persisting after power is turned off might also indicate that the effect involves hysteresis curve somewhere. Like with capacitors charging, the energy already pumped in may take a while to dissipate. Or it might be an indication of magnetism screwing the result up (because it's an effect they're not certain about that has a hysteresis curve). BTW, where is that info from? I haven't seen anything about thrust persisting when the power is off. This is not necessarily a cause for alarm, unless they still get positive thrust when they go back to the lab the next day. :) I find skepticism becoming harder and harder. Unless they find something in the magnets (which they may), it really is going to shake up physics. And even if they do, we'll know more, since the "obvious" errors were all ruled out, so something unusual is going on. Granted, the case of an "interesting error" is less exciting to an average person, but it'd have its uses as well.

Skepticism is fine, but sometimes it results in discarding potential discoveries. In general, it often occurs that once a constant has been measured wrong, the value will "drift" over to the correct one over time. The reason is, the next team determining it will often find the earlier paper, find their own results (even if they're correct) not matching it and continue messing with their equipment and cherry-picking data until they kinda-sorta match the old value. The next team does the same, except referencing the previous teams' value (closer to truth, but still wrong) and so on, until they zero in on the right one, which may take years. Too much skepticism with regards to your own results might cause experimental discoveries to be delayed greatly, especially if there doesn't exist a theory that would predict them.

 
Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
In the end it comes down to what The E said: there's no point saying 'yay it works' until someone has the damn thing in orbit, measurably increasing its momentum.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
I think what Dragon is saying is "Yay, we're about to understand that we don't understand something, and then try to understand it."  Which is pretty cool.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: EM Drive still working (also it looks really cool)
Right now the probable outcome is 'test error,' which is of no use to anyone. Keep an eye on the replications and the peer critics. That's how we'll tell if this is real.