Author Topic: GTB Ursa  (Read 32326 times)

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Offline Mongoose

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Someone has already noted that it would be an utterly trivial exercise to swap out the missile pods for a different design if one so chose, which makes this entire discussion moot anyway.

 

Offline Hades

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The missile pods on my model are not going to move away from being tapered, period. It gives it an aggressive look, which I think fits the Ursa more than boring and primitive. I may undo the curve and make it more like Spoon's suggestion, but I will not be removing the taper.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 10:07:06 pm by Hades »
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Someone has already noted that it would be an utterly trivial exercise to swap out the missile pods for a different design if one so chose, which makes this entire discussion moot anyway.

It might seem trivial to someone who IS a modeler, but to other people it is not trivial. And that's just the model itself. Changing something from rounded to blocky would mess up the texture at the very least and suddenly this supposedly trivial task is actually two tasks, requiring different programs and skills. Then there's also UVmapping and possibly glowpoints too. The firing points might have to be ajusted as well...

Maybe to someone like you or Hades this seems trivial, but from my layman's perspective this seems far from an easy task.

 

Offline Black Wolf

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But the reality is that it is easy to a fair number of community members. If the pods are too much of a departure, to the point that they're a problem when the model is finalised, someone will likely change it. And once that version of the model is around, then it'll probably be available for anyone that wants to use it.
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Offline Dragon

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POF editing is easy enough, the real hard part is taking a complete model and adjusting the mesh and the UVs. Thankfully, there's a modeler who's willing to do it, so looks like we're in luck. :) When Hades is done with it (not saying "finished", I know how that usually goes :)), Col.Hornet will probably step in. It would be especially funny if his version ended up being done first...
The missile pods on my model are not going to move away from being tapered, period. It gives it an aggressive look, which I think fits the Ursa more than boring and primitive. I may undo the curve and make it more like Spoon's suggestion, but I will not be removing the taper.
It would be a good idea to try Spoon's idea, because the current version isn't even that good looking. The current taper lightens the bomber too much from the bottom and looks just plain out of place (literally, the only 45 degree angle like that on the entire front profile, on something that is mostly right angles). Indeed, I think that overtly aggressive look doesn't fit that particular design. It looks halfway between the "implacable and heavy" look and "fast attacker" one, sending a mixed message (it has a "fast" front/back and "slow" sides). Note, all this is regardless of what this model is supposed to be.
Ah, so looking at real life things that actually were bulky, rugged, and tough, like tanks, in an effort to make a ship carry those qualities is somehow a negative and doesn't apply.  Ok, well, that's an... er, interesting opinion, but it explains a great deal about your approach to visual design.
The thing is, tanks are a diverse lot and certainly not the first thing people think of when looking at space fighters (and Ursa is not designed to explicitly evoke a tank). See "reality is unrealistic" effect. FS is not ArmA, and the perception of how something is "supposed" to look is more important than what something would actually look like IRL. That's my point. It doesn't matter if the biggest lumbering behemoth actually fielded in WWII had a lot of curves or not. It matters that right angles and flat surfaces are associated with toughness and ruggedness.

TBH, even when thinking of tanks, most people will picture the (very angular) M1 Abrams, unless they live far enough east to think of round-turreted Soviet/Russian ones instead (or in Israel, which uses the Merkava, which is angular like the Abrams). The modern tanks are also notably missing the "slow" part (they're anything but).

 

Offline Hades

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Boxiness and right angles are not associated with ruggedness and toughness in my mind because from an engineering standpoint they're anything but. The IS-3 is angled and curved and looks rugged and tough, and it is also tough, because angled armor is one hell of a thing when it comes to actually being effective against enemy tank rounds.

Of course in space this also changes somewhat, in 3D space, angles tend to lose value over curvature. You still wouldn't design a box because a box will still be exploited, but a cylindrical design has a lot of benefits, including acting as angled armor when struct toward the end of thes curve.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 
From my point of view it's not about armour at all ;) 1'st. Shivans are not firing at us  with AP tank shells. In FS we are facing energy weapons and explosive warheads from rockets (some of them however are piercing the armour before detonation, like Harpoons) I'm standing for rectangular pods because:
-it's more retail (but nevermind :P, do as you wish)
- Ursa's capacity is impressive. These pods are really looking like they can really carry a lot of ordnance. It's more about the space inside then armour. Cube has bigger volume then tapered block, so maybe you should stay with the curved version. It will make the visual "loss of space inside" smaller.

 
if it's so easy to model, uvmap and texture a variant design why is hades waiting on about 3 other people to do it for his
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 02:18:38 pm by Phantom Hoover »
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Hades

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because it's not my responsibility nor my job to model a version I disagree with? I don't get how this can't get through that thick skull of yours, we've had this discussion before several times.

You have to remember how it works, you can disagree with my opinions and vision all you want, but I can also disagree to change my model to fit those if I disagree. VasudanAdmiral, Raven, and Aesaar are people who are good at giving constructive criticism when they disagree with an aspect of a model and they understand this too; just because they say something doesn't mean the model will fit to change their view. Just as I don't expect them to change their model just because I may not like something about theirs.

Of course if you never get this concept I'll not be surprised, I remember you telling me to basically take over Aesaar's Titan over a couple of uncurved lines.

From my point of view it's not about armour at all ;) 1'st. Shivans are not firing at us  with AP tank shells. In FS we are facing energy weapons and explosive warheads from rockets (some of them however are piercing the armour before detonation, like Harpoons) I'm standing for rectangular pods because:
-it's more retail (but nevermind :P, do as you wish)
- Ursa's capacity is impressive. These pods are really looking like they can really carry a lot of ordnance. It's more about the space inside then armour. Cube has bigger volume then tapered block, so maybe you should stay with the curved version. It will make the visual "loss of space inside" smaller.
The latter point is a very good point. I'll have to think about this.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 04:07:35 pm by Hades »
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 
OK what I was trying to say is that making your own personal variant of the model clearly isn't the five-second job some people are making it out to be.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline The Dagger

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Changing the pods is a 5 minutes change if you start from a finalized model. The reason there are so many models in FSU that require UVmapping, texturing and convertion is because those have to be done entirely. Doing an entire UVmap, texture and conversion takes weeks. Changing the UVs and adjusting the texture does not (if you know what you are doing). If you don't know how to do it, maybe you shouldn't be giving your opinion after some other modellers have already said so.
Finally, if the FSU demands the model to follow Spoon's drawing instead of whatever Hades comes up with, I'll ****ing do the change myself, so stop whining about it! :mad:

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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FSU will not make such a demand unless the curve or whatever you all are arguing about significantly alters retail mission balance.

I say significantly because it must be measurable and reproduceable. I don't want to see mission balance arguments popping up without irrefutable data to support it.

A good example is the two Saths a while back. One of them had turrets in very different locations from retail due to the new model's geometry, so we had no choice but to disqualify it.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 06:29:51 pm by mjn.mixael »
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Offline BirdofPrey

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Speaking of which.  No one answered my question earlier.
While I like the look of the large bomb points on this model, will the fact it has less spots for missile launch points cause any issues?
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
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Having played FS1 first, i actually feel some bizarre fondness towards Ursas, so i'm glad it's getting such a lovely upgrade.
(But you must make the missile pods completely cylindrical, to minimize the surface-to-volume ratio and to achieve the classically intimidating revolver look. Won't be any good otherwise.)
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Speaking of which.  No one answered my question earlier.
While I like the look of the large bomb points on this model, will the fact it has less spots for missile launch points cause any issues?

That should have almost no impact on gameplay.
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Between the Ashes is looking for committed testers, PM me for details.
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Offline Swifty

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FSU will not make such a demand unless the curve or whatever you all are arguing about significantly alters retail mission balance.

I say significantly because it must be measurable and reproduceable. I don't want to see mission balance arguments popping up without irrefutable data to support it.

A good example is the two Saths a while back. One of them had turrets in very different locations from retail due to the new model's geometry, so we had no choice but to disqualify it.

Man, the way you phrased that makes it seem like the FSU is like the DoD Joint Strike Fighter competition between defense contractors or something. :P

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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FSU will not make such a demand unless the curve or whatever you all are arguing about significantly alters retail mission balance.

I say significantly because it must be measurable and reproduceable. I don't want to see mission balance arguments popping up without irrefutable data to support it.

A good example is the two Saths a while back. One of them had turrets in very different locations from retail due to the new model's geometry, so we had no choice but to disqualify it.

Man, the way you phrased that makes it seem like the FSU is like the DoD Joint Strike Fighter competition between defense contractors or something. :P

Just trying to be clear and impartial when I'm representing FSU as a whole.  :)
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Offline Mongoose

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(But you must make the missile pods completely cylindrical, to minimize the surface-to-volume ratio and to achieve the classically intimidating revolver look. Won't be any good otherwise.)
I like the cut of your jib.

 

Offline Hades

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This isn't totally dead.


Finally did the cockpit, which I redesigned because the vanilla cockpit design was pretty ugly and also made the thing look like it was half the size or so and I fixed up parts of the main hull as well.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline Dragon

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Nice, I suppose. It really gives it this "next generation bomber" look, if you know what I mean...

It really does make it look big, though. I didn't quite realize just how ginormous this thing was.