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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Nuke on May 02, 2012, 01:09:35 am

Title: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on May 02, 2012, 01:09:35 am
the possibility of interfacing freespace and hardware is becoming extremely likely. ive already tested inter-process communication, and hardware interfacing with the freespace engine with good results. it just takes a little lua, c/++ and some electronics knowhow. i figure with some time, funding, and dedication, someone could create and manufacturer elements with which to build freespace cockpit mockups. these would be designed under the open source hardware model. turns out oshw enthusiasts are making a killing selling their kits and projects and using that money to create bigger and better projects. i figure start with simple multi-purpose mfds and interface software, and progressively move up to purpose build gauges, like a hardware ets or shield gauge that can be panel mounted in your own diy panel. and work up to entire mockups and potentially motion simulators. you would eventually get some epic

the purpose of this poll is to determine if people would buy this stuff. while the nature of oshw is to release all design files and source code, there is still the issue of manufacturing. anyone is free to use the source files to build their own, or as a basis for a spinoff. but there are those who would simply prefer to buy completed units or kits to improve dev time. people are basing entire companies around oshw and its been big buisness for many. consider this a little market research on the subject. let me know what you think.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Mongoose on May 02, 2012, 01:23:17 am
I would probably not, since I have many other things that I'd much rather spend my money on (plus where the hell would I put it), but the idea is really cool, and I'd wager that at least a few people around here would be interested.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Ulala on May 02, 2012, 02:11:19 am
There's always Kickstarter.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 02, 2012, 10:41:14 am
If i won a lottery, I'd buy it all.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: esarai on May 02, 2012, 01:16:52 pm
Hmmm... I'm imagining a set of panels that mimic the systems layout of a FS fighter with a space in the center for whichever joystick the user wants.  Like... weapons control on the upper right, shield management gauge just below that, ETS panel next to the joystick, targeting and comms systems on the left... hhnnnnghhh that would be awesome.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Thaeris on May 02, 2012, 01:54:03 pm
You should totally build a com panel akin to a UFC. You'll be c-3-9'ing faster than derpers derping at a software convention.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on May 02, 2012, 05:37:40 pm
an mfd panel would be a good place to start. it would have broad use with other games/simulators. definately a good stepping stone for moving on to bigger and better things.

there are two routes to take for this:

route a:

run an application on the computer that renders the graphics to an auxiliary video output from your video card. output to a small lcd monitor (like those composite review camera monitors you get for $20-$30 on ebay). these displays would be modded to also contain an array of command buttons and possibly other controls, like knobs/rotory encoders. you need a video card with composite out (unless i can source a monitor with vga/hdmi interface), and probibly a usb connection for the buttons.

pros: better graphics, cheap, more configurable
cons: more cables (usb/composite/probibly power), dependant on cost and availability of non oshw lcd screens, requires video port on your video card (and theyre starting to phase out composite/svideo/vga, for new standards like hdmi)

route b:

design a stand alone unit with a usb interface. it would do all the rendering onboard, so graphic detail would be limited. screens would likely have limited color depth (12 and 16 bit lcds are common at this size) and may only be 1-bit. there is also not a lot of cpu power available to a microcontroller. on the other side you could probibly keep a better eye on power usage, potentially only needing the usb interface. reprogramming the unit will take some hardware and programming skills (initially they would handle a set of fs style gauges, and would need to be modded to handle additional gauges for other mods/games). it would also require more complicated electronics design and firmware programming and more complicated system side drivers.

pros: better wiring, somewhat configurable, doesnt use up video ports, can be designed as entirely oshw
cons: probibly more expensive, longer dev cycle, not the best graphics.

beyond mfds id like to some kind of system of gauges with a central controller and power supply. it would be like the hub unit to interface with the computer and a number of gauges. gauges could be bought one at a time as desired, and would use a somewhat standardized bus, with standard connectors and wiring. it would talk to the computer over usb most likely and would need to be plugged in to power everything. each gauge would be designed for a specific purpose, like shield, ets, weapon select, sensors, control panels, etc.

and beyond that id like to think about bigger things, full cockpits, display systems, motion platforms, collimated displays, augmented reality (you see your real cockpit interior, joysticks and all your real stuff, but look out the "windows" and see the game, using some kind vr gear+cameras, but thats really ambitius stuff there). do some head tracking, you could use a static projector with a motion platform cockpit, and use something like kinect to track the pilot, so the displays react to you and your simulator's motion. badass stuff, but out of my dev budget, for now.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: pecenipicek on May 03, 2012, 12:54:18 am
i'm all for route b, and you might see me join the development effort there, as i've been itching to get into microcontroller shenanigans for a while now.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on May 03, 2012, 01:05:38 am
b would also have the added bonus that it can serve as the host for the other gauges. just brake out the i2c bus and make it the bus master. of course then it would need a more robust power supply to juice all the extra gauges. you can source 500ma from the usb bus, more than that and you risk damaging the port/mobo/whole system. a powerful mcu is happy at 200ma, leaving you 300ma to power the rest of the systems. im kind of exepcting every external gauge to want about 250-500ma of current each. an mfd and six other gauges would eat up (at 350 each) about 2.5 amps.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: pecenipicek on May 03, 2012, 04:07:05 am
b would also have the added bonus that it can serve as the host for the other gauges. just brake out the i2c bus and make it the bus master. of course then it would need a more robust power supply to juice all the extra gauges. you can source 500ma from the usb bus, more than that and you risk damaging the port/mobo/whole system. a powerful mcu is happy at 200ma, leaving you 300ma to power the rest of the systems. im kind of exepcting every external gauge to want about 250-500ma of current each. an mfd and six other gauges would eat up (at 350 each) about 2.5 amps.
i'm kinda of the opinion that its best for the whole system to be completely free of the PC's PSU, and only connect to the PC for data transfer. i've scrounged a old-ish AT PSU and turned into a benchtop powersupply.

USB is good, but arent the chips / logic for it a smidge on the expensive side? granted its the best option as far as bandwidth is concerned.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on May 04, 2012, 06:03:15 am
yea its gonna need its own power supply. 500ma is the maximum, by the usb standard, that you are allowed to draw. also your signal lines should be 3.3v (they should tolerate 5v, according to the usb standards, but i think its a bad idea to push it to the maximum rating). most of the usb devices you use are single chip devices, and 200ma is a typical power draw from an avr (not sure about pic). with glue logic, display components, etc, that is easily doubled. things like old laptop chargers can supply a fairly reasonable amount of juice, and the usb standards do allow for external power. then any devices should have a few levels of protection, reverse voltage protection, excessive voltage protection, inductive loads (namely motors/relays) should have flyback diodes, leds should have voltage limiters, and all external connections should use polarized connectors. surely ive left stuff out but the way i see it if im gonna hook it up to my primary rig its going to have all the protection i can give it.

chips that can run usb aren't really any more expensive than the ones you cant. and there are software usb stacks you can use too. i havent done any usb yet, but its something i want to figure out. with high throughput stuff you may be better with ethernet, but aside from streaming video from the game to the mfd (and the ease of setup, namely no drivers to write), i dont think you would really need it.

i just finished up a design for my 10 digit 7 segment display, which will be driven by an attiny2313, a 3-8 decoder, a shift register, and several discrete transistors. i intended to use this for a different project, but i figure i can use it for interim testing of interfaces. possibly make an external ammo counter or something. i also ordered a 16x2 character lcd i can use for other stuff, like weapon select.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on May 05, 2012, 05:01:39 am
yip heres my layout, ready for the toner transfer method.
board will use 1x attiny 2313, 1x74hc595 shift register, 1x 74hc238 3-8 line decoder, 10x 2n7000 n-channel mosfets, a 16 mhz crystal, and an assortment of caps and resistors. also an icsp header for programming/spi communication, an i2c header (with power), and a serial header (also powered), also a 2 pin header to connect an extra pin, which can be used to interrupt the mcu, or provide a slave select line for spi. no onboard power supply, but since it needs another device to output data to it to operate it, i guess its ok.

(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/sevenseg.png)
(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/displayt.png)

etchant will be diy, the peroxide+vinegar+salt recipe, i only have to steal the peroxide from the first aid kit and i got some vinegar and salt in my spice (*obligatory comment about sandworms*) cabinet anyway. i think i opted against making my own transfer paper (i was having a production issue with my own recipe of transfer paper), since a 10 pack of pcb transfer paper only costs about $5. of course its going to take forever to get here. so i got some time for breadboard testing, and writing firmware. il do some freespace stuff later on, like a stand alone i2c ets gauge.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Thaeris on May 05, 2012, 11:32:34 am
Nuke, you are perhaps the most awesome electrical engineer I know without a degree. We'd be doomed if you actually had one. :D

Great show, man.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on May 05, 2012, 10:09:53 pm
are you kidding, i broke a lot of basic design conventions. the way the mosfets drive the common anode of the 7 segment displays is probibly incorrect. every electronics tutorial i read likes to put the load above the drain. but in my case the load is drawn from below the source. this probibly is not a good idea, and i probibly need some resistance somewhere to balance things out. it would have been better to use common cathode displays and put the mosfet downstream.

the line decoder selects which of the 8 mosfet gates to open, and 2 other transistors go right to the mcu, its purpose is really to toggle 8 gates with 4 pins (3 bits + chip enable to bring one of the 8 channels high, or ~chip enable turns all of them off), and i still need 2 other pins for the last 2 mosfets, since there are 10 displays to drive and a mosfet for each. the job of the chip is essentially to reduce my pin count for controlling the driver circuitry from 10 to 6. i could have used a bigger mcu, and drive the gates directly, but considering the low performance application in this case, it would be a waste. the mosfets allow the displays to draw more current than the mcu/decoder, which are limited to around 20ma. an led segment in the display can draw that on its own, and if you wanted to draw a zero and decimal place, the display would draw 160ma. and the mosfet can supply up to 400ma. only one display will be powered at any time. and thats it for the driver side.

the shift register in this case provides a sink source. for unpowered displays a value of either 0 or 1 has no meaning. in case of 1, the diode will be reverse biased, and will prevent flow, and in case of 0 there will not be any (meaningful) voltage differential to cause current flow. for a powered display, a 0 will allow power to flow, current here will only be about 20 ma, and the pins on the shift register will tolerate that. if its a 1, again no (meaningful) voltage differential, as there will be 5v at each end. all the displace have their cathodes on a common bus, which connects to the shift register through the 8 current limiting resistors (i tested it with 120 ohms, but i might use higher or lower depending on display brightness). the shift register is a serial device, so it only takes 3 pins to control it.

only one display is powered at any time. to output to it, you first power one of the driver channels. then you shift out a byte to the bus. each bit corresponds to a particular segment in the display, and its active low so a 0 turns it on and a 1 turns it off. let it stay on for a small amount of time, then switch to the next driver channel and shift out the value for the next digit. update all the displays thusly. at any given time only one display is on, so for every 10 seconds, each display is on for only one second. but if you do this fast enough, like keep each display on for about a ms, then every 10 ms, they come back on, and thanks to persistance of vision, it looks like its always on.

you can talk to it over i2c, serial, or spi over the icsp port, and i had a pin left over, so i figured id use it for an external interrupt/or a slave select for the spi interface. could probibly also do a one wire serial protocal with it as well. given the limited amount of resources on the microcontroller you probibly wont be able to change interfaces without a reflash, but thats ok, il probibly just use the 12c port.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on May 06, 2012, 06:49:57 am
i got the display and sink source all setup on a breadboard, barring any errors. its to late to do anymore work on it. i gave up an entire night of drinking to cut and place jumper wires. i really need a better pair of wire strippers. i also really wish i had more breadboards, i mean i got 3 little ones and one big one, and none of them connect up right. i guess you got to buy a bunch of them at once to ensure consistent design. id love to have more than 4 bus wires, especially when you need to run an 8 wire bus down the thing. the whole display can essentially be thought of as a 10x8 matrix. it really boggles the mind to think about it. thats 80 leds! and im controlling the whole thing with only 9 pins! its a testament to the glory of glue logic.

so i got the 3 control pins and the 2 power pins for the shift register broken out to longish jumper wires (there are 10 more connections for the drivers that i haven't run yet). il probibly plug them right into my arduino for testing. i still dont have the driver part of the circuit prototyped yet. probibly not an easy task in itself. i got to wire 10 mosfets into a common power bus, and then send one pin to the display digits, and one to the mcu, or decoder. il have to make a ****ton more jumper wires though. ive bought 3 wire kits for prototyping, but im still constantly making more jumpers. you cant have too many jumper wires. im probibly also going to need to make several long jumpers, since im gonna end up using 2 breadboards and an arduino for testing. 15 wires going from the large display board to 2 other places. and 4 other wires (and 2 power wires) connecting those 2 other places. i think im going to need to clean my electronics desk.

il post some pics when i got it working. the prototyped version will be slightly different than the diagram. the crystal, headers, power are all built into the arduino, and i wont need to set those up. i can eliminate the large decoupling capacitor, as the arduino's supply has one, but you should decouple the high frequency stuff close to your ic. also the mcu is more powerful than the one i will be using. but it will allow me write the control code for the display. il worry about code for the interfaces later (it will be very tight code considering the program space / memory limitations of the 2313). i can use the serial interface to send numbers to the mcu for testing. im thinking about several display modes. first mode is hex, which will display 5 bytes worth of hexadecimal (one byte per dual display), decimal, which will display any 10 digit number using some format (i figure all integer values from -999999999 to 9999999999, or fixed point values with a format somewhere between 10.0 and 1.9, or 9.0 to 1.8 for negative numbers), raw mode will just send bytes where each bit represents one of the segments in the display. im also thinking about a pseudo-english format as well, substitutions have to be made for k,m,t,v,w,and x, but the rest of the english alphabet works ok on the display, so i have to learn 6 new letters big whoop. t can be a backwards 7, v can be a backwords y, k can be a line with 2 sticks growing out the side. il chuck it if its not readable enough. storing a large font in a little tiny memory is probibly not a good idea.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: pecenipicek on May 06, 2012, 06:53:43 am
(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/displayt.png)
hokay, so, this is supposed to be how big, in real-life dimensions? and, from what i can figure out, good old through-hole, back and front mask. you are gonna have a freaking nightmare aligning that to each other, and thats not counting that your printer might **** up the dimensions as well. and then there's the horror of drilling all those holes....

/me shudders...

okay, yeah, i'm a breadboard man. i've yet to actually assemble anything on any sort of pcb and have it working afterwards :p
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on May 06, 2012, 07:43:23 am
i did one single sided board in high school, and it didnt work. thats the limit of my expertise. i actually printed out a test, held em up to the sun and all the holes lined up. i also took a ruler and measured a bunch of known distances on the board, the dip packages have a 0.1" spacing, so 6 pins should be spaced by exactly half an inch. thats not the actual size in the image (its a 1600 dpi png with a 1 bit pixel depth) its roughtly 2" by 5 1/4" (bout the same width as a cd drive and a little taller). alignment will be a *****, there are 4 alignment holes (the large hexagonal pads near the corners). my plan is to use a template pattern with the alignment holes marked, clamp it to the board. then drill out the alignment holes with a dremel. then i can clean up the burrs, and polish the **** out of the thing, clean it, and get it ready. then affix the transfer paper with masking tape. i will take a small hole puncher that i have somewhere, and very carefully and precisely punch out the alignment holes from the mask sheets, then i just center those holes on drilled holes, and hope for the best.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: ABetterWay on May 06, 2012, 11:59:29 am
Nice work Nuke.  I can't wait to see it up and running.  You are definitely more ambitious than me at the moment! :)  For starters I will be displaying my output using a second LCD monitor mounted behind 2 or 3 Thrustmaster Cougar MFD's (http://tinyurl.com/ThrustmasterCougar). 
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: LordMelvin on May 06, 2012, 12:23:50 pm
Although outside my current budget, this is very relevant to my theoretical interests.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: pecenipicek on May 06, 2012, 04:47:49 pm
i did one single sided board in high school, and it didnt work. thats the limit of my expertise. i actually printed out a test, held em up to the sun and all the holes lined up. i also took a ruler and measured a bunch of known distances on the board, the dip packages have a 0.1" spacing, so 6 pins should be spaced by exactly half an inch. thats not the actual size in the image (its a 1600 dpi png with a 1 bit pixel depth) its roughtly 2" by 5 1/4" (bout the same width as a cd drive and a little taller). alignment will be a *****, there are 4 alignment holes (the large hexagonal pads near the corners). my plan is to use a template pattern with the alignment holes marked, clamp it to the board. then drill out the alignment holes with a dremel. then i can clean up the burrs, and polish the **** out of the thing, clean it, and get it ready. then affix the transfer paper with masking tape. i will take a small hole puncher that i have somewhere, and very carefully and precisely punch out the alignment holes from the mask sheets, then i just center those holes on drilled holes, and hope for the best.

i hope for the best. the best i've got on my hands is drills. not even a proper drill holder, so i cant exactly do it "hands-free" :p
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on May 07, 2012, 04:25:54 am
progress!

(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/IMG_0193.jpg)

having some issues with brightness and contrast right now. the issue with contrast is it takes some time for my code to load the shift register with the value of the next digit and during this time the previous display's digit is visible. its not a very big amount of time in relation to the time the actual digit is visible, but its enough to affect readability. my solution to the problem was to lower the resistance values for the current limiters, from 470 to 180 ohms. the value i actually want is 250, but with the 470s the displays were dim, and now their to bright, and the contrast issue is the same. ive inserted a "blanking" delay at the end of an output cycle, where i turn off all the displays for a set length of time. it doesnt really work all that much. ultimately i figure the problem with the contrast is actually a problem with the arduino ide. its just too slow. you waste hundreds on ns of time just setting one of the pins values (times multiple pins), thus pissing away precious microseconds. the solution will be to talk to the registers directly. i knew at some point i would need to come up with tighter code, so this is not a major issue.

another odd bug with my code, which left me scratching my head was that for some reason it wouldnt let me output values from an array over a typical for loop, but it would let me output the value from the loop counter, and thats what you see. you may also notice the beer, fiy thats my 5th one, so i better stop tweaking before i burn out my displays.

*edit: reasons not to code drunk*
nested loops end up in places that a couple of ifs should have been used
variable names are indecipherable gibberish
comments are 80% swear words complaining about why the code underneath it doesnt work
you #define entire lines of code
you forget important idiot proofing (your microcontroller wont tell you when it segfaults)
you also forget that your target mcu cant multiply

anyway i got the serial interface somewhat working. though im not happy with my packet format, which was designed for simplicity (and my blood alcohol level when i designed it). i decided to make the entire command a single byte, so i wouldn't need to go through the trouble of finding sync. the first nibble was the opcode and the second nibble was the parameters for that code. of 16 possible op codes 0-9 were used to write a hex value to to a specific digit. the other 6 were debugging codes, to do things like dump all 10 display values in raw mode, or dump the font, 2 more to allow you to set and clear decimal points, and 2 more to read a single digit in hex and raw. so a lot of redundancy there.

anyway this is somewhat cumbersome. im actually thinking of using a text format. ascii is only 7 bit, and i can use the 8th bit for sync, just set it for the first byte and look for a byte > 127. the opcodes can just use a single character, and this gives me like 96 possible codes (minus control characters, which id rather not use). the downside here is it would be very slow. say i want to write f in hex to digit 5. i would do W5F. i could also do simd codes: like WAA55F00C666 (W is the write hex command, A is the parameter, for write all, followed by the values to be written, lol). writing raw values would just take 2 characters to represent their values in hex, and read commands would be very short. if your controlling this in lua this would be a really easy and intuitive way to do things. but this device will sit attatched to anomain mcu, and micro controllers aren't so good at text processing.

my other option is to use a binary format, that can be sorted out with bitwise operations. i can keep my sync bit, and use the remaining 7 bits to store opcodes/data. i can drop to 3-bit opcodes instead of 4 (i dont need as many because i can allocate as many additional bytes for data as needed), and this gives me an entire nibble for parameters. all the read all commands would be one byte commands with no additional bytes. there would be 4 read commands, for raw/hex/text, and another to read the decimal point flags. the read commands all have complementary write commands. the difference is that additional bytes would follow the command for the data. hex and text modes only need include another byte. raw mode and decimal point mods require 8 and 10 bits respectively, since the 8th bit is for sync, these need 2 data bytes. so all commands are less than 3 bytes. the 4-bit parameters also allow for expansion. values 0-9 index individual displays, where a is the all command, and in the case of write commands would require additional data bytes, and probibly some formatting to save space. other values can be used for settings, like brightness and contrast. so i rather like this idea.

ultimately i intend to use an i2c interface for this. i2c is a lot easier do deal with. it has all its sync data build in, and its designed with an address-register-data format. you can also write to a series of registers by sending additional data bytes. reading is a little bit more trouble, you need to send a address-register to the device, then you can receive bytes back starting from that register, and you can also receive a series of bytes in this way, with the register incrementing by one for each. it makes using a uart seem archaic. for now im going to be using a serial interface. i will try to do some interface with freespace though serial. im going to use a proxy script like i did before. freespace will talk to it over tcp/ip loopback, but ultimately will talk to the arduino over serial. id use my ethernet shield, but the library im using only supports tcp server. so i couldnt use my existing udp code, where my proxy script just needs a little modification. so i will use that for my initial testing.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: ABetterWay on May 07, 2012, 09:10:04 pm
Have you played with any of the LED driver chips?  Like the MAX7219 (http://www.maxim-ic.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/1339).  Seems like it might be easier and it apparently handles the brightness. I don't think I have seen one that can do 10 digits yet.  The MAX7219 can handle up to 8 7 segment leds.  When I start fooling around with these things, I am going to give this chip a shot.

Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on May 07, 2012, 11:02:49 pm
that looks like a nice chip. would save a lot of time. do they have one with an i2c interface? if they did you could use it on the bus without a microcontroller and save on your part count. 3-wire is ok i guess, you could implement it side by side with an mcu, say you need a display with input controls, mcu would let you deal with input in addition to output on the same mcu. ive mostly been using 7400 series because you can source the parts for next to nothing. there are also bcd and hex display drivers as well, i looked at some of those, but these limit the number of digits you can display. i kinda wanted an interchangeable font, and some of these single chip solutions kinda restrict what you can display.

my hex format doesn't have a facility for a - sign for displaying negative numbers (i probibly wont use this mode for displaying game data), the raw format of course lets you output anything the display can draw. the text mode is the "easy method" but require more complicated translation code. internally i store everything in a 10 byte array where each byte is a raw mode character. when reading to or writing to the array, there are several translate functions and usually some mapping info. bargraphs are another matter though. i will want driver chips for those.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Al-Rik on May 31, 2012, 01:56:51 pm

there are two routes to take for this:

route a:

run an application on the computer that renders the graphics to an auxiliary video output from your video card. output to a small lcd monitor (like those composite review camera monitors you get for $20-$30 on ebay). these displays would be modded to also contain an array of command buttons and possibly other controls, like knobs/rotory encoders. you need a video card with composite out (unless i can source a monitor with vga/hdmi interface), and probibly a usb connection for the buttons.

pros: better graphics, cheap, more configurable
cons: more cables (usb/composite/probibly power), dependant on cost and availability of non oshw lcd screens, requires video port on your video card (and theyre starting to phase out composite/svideo/vga, for new standards like hdmi)

Well, I would like to use route a... sort of ;)

17" or 19" 4:3 TFTs are nowadays cheap to get on the second hand market, and many gamers have them still with all the other old hardware in the cellar or loft - sometimes next to an old an obsolete Pentium IV or Athlon 64 PC.

DLP Projector becoming cheaper every year,  and Thrustmaster sells those shiny little fake MFDs for little money.

And that is my plan:
At the moment I have an old Athlon X2 with 4 GB Ram and Onboard GFX in my living room, mainly as music server. It's connected to an old, wall mounted 19" TFT.
In the long term I will add Full HD DLP Projector for watching DVDs and Blue Rays in the living room.

While I will it not use for every day gaming, I would like to use the Projector for Freespace, Wing Commander Saga and Diaspora on the big screen.
I will create a least small mock up cockpit with 2 of those fake MFDs from Thrustmaster.
One Left, One right an maybe an old 19" TFT in the middle, connected via VGA or DVI Cable to the second connector on my Gaming PC.

The MFDs I will connect via USB and binded to keys with JoyToKey.
 
I would like to use the middle 19" TFT for Radar, Target View, Weapon & Shields and all other HUD Gauges that are not part of Freespace Target Reticle.
(In normal Games it would use it for Teamspeak, ;) )

At the moment I use also a double TFT set up, a big 28" full HD for the game an old 19" TFT for Teamspeak.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on June 05, 2012, 10:30:00 pm
some "progress" though i dont really think it can be classified as "progress" so much as stumbling around in the darkness.

anyway where i left off i was making a small modification to my design that routs that pin for the interrupt header to the output enable pin of the shift register, to give me the ability to completely cut off the leds from the rest of the board, only costing me a header i was probibly never gonna use anyway. the design change was done, and layout updated. i was waiting for my toner transfer paper to arrive, after failing horrifically to produce my own. so a couple days ago i printed out the pattern on the transfer paper. one other thing i needed was to aquire a drill press. because i needed to punch some precision drilled holes to align the two transfer sheets. not having the cash to dish out on tools i just built one out of legos, using 1 modded lego and a dremel:

(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/legodrillpressissnazzy.jpg)

this was built last night, legos are a serious time sink, i finished up mostly in 4 hours. but i didnt like something with the gear box, the worm drive was mounted on one side of a pair of rack and pinion gears, and the weight of the dremel was enough to flex the axel, and this caused the dremel to lean to one side while it was being raised and the other while lowered, i found this annying, took the whole thing apart, and put the worm drive in the center of the axel instead so that it would flex evenly. this added another 3 hours to the build, but i ended up with a fairly functional and accurate drill press. its only downside is i rushed the base design, and so the work area isnt all that big. and the work area clearance is less than ideal. i also used studless parts for the rails, i could have probibly used bricks for it like i did everything else but it would have been much larger and more complicated. of course i only wanted something that could do this one small job. a lot of the contraption blocks my view so i just hooked up an led board from a dead flashlight to a battery with a potentiometer, letting me dial up the leds to a brightness which would not burn out the leds. i used a pot because i was too lazy to do math to figure out the voltage drop and how much current limiting resistance id need.

so yesteray after i printed out the layout to the transfer paper, i expirimented with ways to cut pcbs. first thing i tried was a pair of scissors, this worked but only for small cuts and it did warp the pcb somewhat. i then tried the score and break method, at first it didnt seem like it would work, but then i deepened the scoring, cut the metal on the other side, and it broke with with a rough edge, the coper in that area bent slightly, but i used some heavy grit sandpaper to clean it up. so it looks like this will be what i will do from now on.

onward i used a plain paper print of the bottom layer to dimple the pcb in the areas where the alignment holes were, for this job a hammer and a small finishing nail was sufficient. i was thinking of just drilling through the paper, which in retrospect may have come up with more accurate results, but the dimple method worked fine. i also regretted not having finer drill bits on hand. something half as big could have made my alignment holes lign up better. i simply drilled into the dimple and then cleaned up the burrs with an engraving bit. i then re-polished it, and gave it an alcohol bath to remove any impurities.

(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/alignmentprocess.jpg)

so i use some pins i found in moms craft box through the holes in the board to align the top and bottom sheets, i then secured the edges with tape. removed the pins, put some paper above and below and put the iron on as high as it would go. not to self, in the future use masking tape, it doesnt liquify when ironed. it seemed tob e going smoothly at this point. this is the pcb while cooling down:

(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/applyheat.jpg)

thats a boring picture. but then i peel the stransfer paper off and i get this mess. i think i ****ed up in the ironing stage, after hours of work i wanted to go do something else and i may have rushed through the ironing process. also im not sure i did it right either, probibly didnt apply enough pressure or enough heat, or for long enough. what i got looked like this:

(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/failmodeepic.jpg)

this is completely unusable. but i did learn some things. my alignment process is ok, but it could use some work. i need to get some smaller drill bits, some epic solvents, and a roll of masking tape. i have no idea whether my cleaning precautions were sufficient or not but the board was fairly clean and im pretty sure this is critical to success. transfer paper didnt seem to be of very good quality at all. i had expected more of it to transfer. more pressure more heat, more time, and some other things. not all is lost. i just have to scrub and re-polish the board, give it another alcohol bath, get rid of all the sticky gunk, and i wont have to do the alignment process again or cut anymore pcb. i may improve my drill press but i will keep it in one piece for now. so only thing im out here is one sheet of transfer paper, and maybe a couple ounces of rubbing alcohol. will maybe try again later/tomorrow/next month.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Scourge of Ages on June 05, 2012, 11:21:34 pm
You built it out of Lego. Boss.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on June 06, 2012, 01:28:41 am
meh, i cleaned the board and tried it again, with more heat, more time on heat, more pressure, more cleaning, and the results still aren't much better. im going to have to attribute this to either bad toner or piss poor transfer paper (which i got from a chinese dude on ebay). i managed to double the dpi by printing it as a 1-bit bitmap @ 1200 dpi (this is probibly the upper limit for this old printer that im using, it just barely fits in the printer's memory), this resulted in a darker, more solid print, even on the slick transfer sheet. i gave it an entire 3 minutes of heat on each sidewith considerable downforce, followed by a 30 minute cooldown and 5 minutes in the freezer. i did do some alignment checks with a ruler and everything was within 1/16th of where it should have been. id have liked 1/32 but this is still within tolerance. but over 50% of the traces are broken, and all my sharpies are too blunted for a fixup. i may have to do a re-design with fatter traces and pads, which will not be fun, as i will probibly need to re-cut a larger pcb, unless by some miracle i can keep it all within the same bounds. fml. i guess il try some more expensive transfer paper from a more reputable source, and maybe see about re-filling the toner cartridge, possibly make it darker. i went through the whole process in highschool and it wasnt this much of a pain in the ass to get the toner to stick to the ****ing board.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: jr2 on June 06, 2012, 01:45:08 am
What was the Chinese dude's rating?
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on June 06, 2012, 09:13:05 am
it was actually fairly good. thing is if somone screws you your out a buck or two, but though buy spam you kind learn who the good retailers are. just dont buy anyghin in the $30+ range, because thats where you get screwed, i bought a soldering station and got trashed before it got here, it works, just some case damage, but not only did they insult me with a 10% refund which i did not revieve, they also hijacked my email and started sending spam in my name. they got into big trouble for that.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on June 12, 2012, 02:34:02 am
yay i did it!

after a while of thinking what i was doing wrong 2 things immediately stapped out at me. the first was that perhaps i was not using enough toner. dispite the print dialog not having any darkness settings, i did find that the printer had a default toner setting of 3 and printed at medium. i changed these settings in the printer to 5 and dark, respectively. the result was a much darker print. the other thing, was uneven heating. my alignment meathod was about 50% of the problem. the pins caused the paper to bow in the middile, and i had just taped both ends. this time, i took the 2 pins that lined up the best and taped down the paper there on both sides. once taped i pulled all the pins and visually aligned the remaining holes.this allowed me to tape down the ends with the paper stretched tightly across the surface. i then visually confirmed that i could see light through the alignment holes. i then folded a peice of paper in half, and stuck the board and transfer sheets in between. i also decided i would use a more strict ironing protocol. i applied heat and preasure for a full 30 in 3 passes, for a whole 1.5 minutes a side. the first pass i just covered the entire board with the iron and pressed down really hard. i then turned the board 90 degrees and did a slow spweeping pass. and the 3rd pass i did at a 45 degree angle. i did this to both sides. i then gave it a full 30 minute cool down, and 2 minutes in the freezer. resulting in:

(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/yayitstuck.jpg)
for comparison heres the first attempt
(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/failmodeepic.jpg)

i then used my meatloaf pan (dont tell the others i used this for etching, they would have a fit). peroxide and vinegar, with a little salt for taste (i mean to make it cut faster). it turned out to take a cup each, but i did it in 4 batches of 1 cup each (half a cup each). the lego device in the picture is another tool i designed just for this project, you stick a peice of steel wool (i used a spent sos pad) on the end, and it applies rotation with one of the older model lego gearmotors. essentially a better way to polish the copper clad boards. it was super effective. i dont know if i can attribute it to my success or not. i would have used my dremel if it wasnt now a fixture in my lego drill press (and a pita to remove).

(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/yaychemestry.jpg)

it took 4 baches of my home made etchant which was super-effective, all be it slow. it takes a few minutes for the reaction to start up. i presume it needs an amount of copper in the solution t really start cutting. then any salt added to the surface will cause foaming. you could keep adding salt to facilitate the cutting. eventually the liquid gets saturated with copper and wont etch anymore. i then neutralized it with baking powder (yea your supposed to use baking soda, but they both have sodium bicarbonate in them, i wasnt sure how much to use, so i just shook a little in and it fizzed for awhile, then i rinsed it down the sink with cold water).

(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/strangeblueliquid.jpg)

aftersome more polishing to remove the toner, and a spray down with orange oil to remove the tape remenants, followed by soap-water bath, followed by an alcohol bath, followed by a rinse in cold water. i get this:

(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/kapplah.jpg)

a close inspection did reveal a few bad traces, bot those can be soldier or wire bridged. im pretty pleased with the way it turned out. especially the spot on alignment. light shines right through all the vias, without excessive shadow over. next task will be to find a drill bit small enough to drill the holes. i will likely need several. but all mine are somewhat huge. the alignment holes pretty much ate the entire pad, and thats my smallest bit. but im sure i can scrounge up a few bucks.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: z64555 on June 12, 2012, 11:32:33 am
:applauds:  :yes:
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: pecenipicek on June 12, 2012, 11:48:06 am
nuke, you are my hero :D
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Al-Rik on June 12, 2012, 05:58:08 pm
i then used my meatloaf pan (dont tell the others i used this for etching, they would have a fit). peroxide and vinegar, with a little salt for taste (i mean to make it cut faster). it turned out to take a cup each, but i did it in 4 batches of 1 cup each (half a cup each). the lego device in the picture is another tool i designed just for this project, you stick a peice of steel wool (i used a spent sos pad) on the end, and it applies rotation with one of the older model lego gearmotors. essentially a better way to polish the copper clad boards. it was super effective. i dont know if i can attribute it to my success or not. i would have used my dremel if it wasnt now a fixture in my lego drill press (and a pita to remove).

it took 4 baches of my home made etchant which was super-effective, all be it slow. it takes a few minutes for the reaction to start up. i presume it needs an amount of copper in the solution t really start cutting. then any salt added to the surface will cause foaming. you could keep adding salt to facilitate the cutting. eventually the liquid gets saturated with copper and wont etch anymore. i then neutralized it with baking powder (yea your supposed to use baking soda, but they both have sodium bicarbonate in them, i wasnt sure how much to use, so i just shook a little in and it fizzed for awhile, then i rinsed it down the sink with cold water).

aftersome more polishing to remove the toner, and a spray down with orange oil to remove the tape remenants, followed by soap-water bath, followed by an alcohol bath, followed by a rinse in cold water. i get this:

a close inspection did reveal a few bad traces, bot those can be soldier or wire bridged. im pretty pleased with the way it turned out. especially the spot on alignment. light shines right through all the vias, without excessive shadow over. next task will be to find a drill bit small enough to drill the holes. i will likely need several. but all mine are somewhat huge. the alignment holes pretty much ate the entire pad, and thats my smallest bit. but im sure i can scrounge up a few bucks.
The etched PCB is of amazing Quality  :yes:

You are right with the effect of Copper in the etching solution. Professional PCB producers use Copperchloride and Hydrochloric acid as etching solution (please don't try it at home, it produces a lot of dangerous fumes ). It's a good idea to keep a little bit of an old etching solution and add it to a new one to start the process quicker.
Heating the solution up to 40° Celsius and slightly moving the PCB will also make the process quicker, and a quicker etching leads normally to a better quality.

If you neutralize the etching solution with bicarbonate add it until nothing  fizzles any more. If it's still blue, then there is still Copper in the solution. You can also check the pH Value with a Litmus paper, it should be around 6 to 7.
With enough Bicarbonate a green or blue salt deposits,  that's a mixture of  Copper acetate and Copper carbonate. Let it dry and put it in the trash can, it's not very dangerous.
Calcium hydroxide or Calcium carbonate are better neutralizing agents and removes copper better. Calcium hydroxid won't fizzle, but the solution will heat up, so you have to add it carefully. 

Bicarbonate with a little water and Scotch-Brite (or a new sponge) is also a very effective way to clean the cooper surface of the PCB before transferring the layout.
Use deionized or distilled water as last rinse, if you can get it cheap use it to make up the etch.
Take a look on the behaviour of the water on the PCB when you lift it out of the rinse: there should be for at least 30 seconds a homogeneous film of water on the whole surface, without any dry spots.
A blow-dryer set on cold air is the best way to dry it.

Also try to use Isopropanol instead of normal alcohol. It has a higher purity, smells less awful and is a better solvent for most dyes.
And avoid fingerprints on the PCB at all costs during any stages. Never touch it without gloves.  Fingerprints are in professional PCB Production Plants one of the most common sources of trouble.

And regarding drilling the vias:
Good Luck ! ;)
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on June 12, 2012, 07:33:23 pm
i used ferric chloride before, and if they carried it over at radio shack like theyre supposed to, id use that. i kind of am limited to what kind of chemicals i can get though. mainly because i live in a small town on an island in alaska. post office will not ship chemicals, shipping companies will, but only ground shipping, and they always gouge on alaska way more than the postal service. so with hazmat fees you could spend upwards of $50 to ship a few ounces of powdered etchant. this recipe is one i saw on hack a day, and you can get everything at your typical grocery store. there are quite a few methods to etch pcbs, and im just using the most cost effective for me. i saw an interesting mix of high purity peroxide and muriatic acid that can etch a pcb in seconds (http://hackaday.com/2012/04/30/etching-your-own-boards-really-really-fast/). the fact that the process im using is really slow makes it easy to maintain control of the whole process, so you dont get overetching or undercutting, like you do with fast etching methods.

il try heating the solution next time. it should absorb more copper at temperature. i did apply considerable agitation, i just tilted the pan back and fourth. i considered building agitator machine out of legos, but because i didnt know what to expect from the process, decided against it for the first attempt. which is good because i know that 2 axis agitation is necessary,  and it is also necessary to elevate the double sided boards so both sides get equal flow.

my process is far from perfect, but its what i can do with practically no budget.



Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: z64555 on June 12, 2012, 07:58:50 pm
If they have pools up in your area, try taking a look in the pool cleaning chemicals to see if they have some muriatic acid. The hydrogen peroxide is what really speeds up the etching process for the acid, thanks to the extra O2, and it also helps revitalize old etching solution. Not entirely sure, but you may be able to use peroxide for the ferric chloride, too.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on June 12, 2012, 08:37:30 pm
i could probibly get better peroxide at the pharmacy. the stuff i have is only 6%, and the acidity of the vinegar is only 5%. im sure i could find stronger in town if i looked for it. like cleaning grade vinegar. only pool in town is at the only high school in town. being an indoor pool, probibly doesn't need the same level of chem-foo of an outdoor pool. i dont think they would part with their chemicals though, considering how expensive they are to ship in.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on June 13, 2012, 08:56:15 pm
wile still unable to procure the required drill bits (#71 seems to be the optimal size) i went through my dremel stuff and found a tiny engraving bit i use for cutting traces while circuit bending (the one on the left (http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/Emperor_of_Nihil/alignmentprocess.jpg)). it is also very small in relation to the pcb hole size. i tested it last night, after some slight modifications to the drill press. it stuff goes right through the fiberglass substrate and makes mostly clean holes, so i figure i can use this to punch the vias, though it is likely too small for some of the component pins, like the 3 ics (unless i use sockets).

the test i did kinda illustrates how piss poor the visibility of the work area on the drillpress is, dispite the lighting system (which now has an articulated mount). aside from that it seems my holes are less well aligned that i thought they were. or perhaps this bit has trouble staying centered. perhaps a higher rpm is needed. it was 3 am when i did the test and i turned it to the lowest setting to avoid disturbing the neighbors.

i was actually reading up on several techniques to connect vias, several used copper foil, some involved complex electroplating techniques. what i may just do is take a piece of solid copper wire and solder it to both sides. im gonna spend some time working on the vias, im gonna leave the component holes alone for now, because those will require more precision. so i guess i got some work to do.

*edit*

i drilled all the vias, but none of the part holes, i may start connecting vias tonight if im bored. this will allow thorough trace continuity testing of the board, before i start populating it with actual parts.

*edit again*

so my method for connecting the vias is crude ugly and time consuming but effective. ive probibly connected a third of them, but im too tired to use a soldering iron without burning myself or setting the house on fire. il post some photos in a day or two when i finish the job. this board is more of a test of prototyping techniques than anything. if i ever decide to mass produce anything il just use a fab house to get professional grade stuffs. i should at least get a somewhat functional numeric display out of this. granted i just got a character lcd in the mail that can provide better output. meh.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: z64555 on June 14, 2012, 08:10:52 pm
What's wrong with bridging the two sides of the via with a blob of solder? Tin one side with a fairly big blob that covers the hole, flip over, do the same on the other.

If the board's thin enough, and the holes are small enough, the two solder blobs will fuse when you tin the other side of the board, thereby making a connection.

Edit: Wait, I take that back. That wouldn't work. Sorry. Try heating one side of the hole with the iron and stick the solder through the other side. Little bit more tricky :(
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on June 14, 2012, 09:55:03 pm
well i kinda connected a **** ton of vias today, not all of them but a majority. i accidentally pulled up 2 traces though, one of which has a rather ugly jumper wire on it, and the other with a bare wire bent into the shape of the original trace and soldered down. all this was because one trace was bad, and after several attempts to solder ridge it i attempted to put a bare wire down. it worked, but then other solder joints kept bridging to it, and it an attempt to undo the problem, pulled the whoe entire trace off. this ripped off a neiboring trace, resulting in 2 jumpers, fml. fortunately its on the backside of the board, so it wont interfere with parts on the top. **** like this always happens in the proto phase. now i got 2 of the bus lines crossed somewhere, and i got to fix that.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Al-Rik on June 17, 2012, 01:50:28 pm
i could probibly get better peroxide at the pharmacy. the stuff i have is only 6%, and the acidity of the vinegar is only 5%. im sure i could find stronger in town if i looked for it. like cleaning grade vinegar. only pool in town is at the only high school in town. being an indoor pool, probibly doesn't need the same level of chem-foo of an outdoor pool. i dont think they would part with their chemicals though, considering how expensive they are to ship in.
I'm not quite sure if you will get a higher grade peroxide at the pharmacy. Higher grades are more dangerous and a potential chemical for the home grow terrorist, so don't wonder if the pharmacist ask at lot of questions. ;)

Be careful with the muriatic acid. It's just an other name for hydrochloric acid. It won't burn your flesh or cook your eyeball like high grade sulphuric acid does, but it produces a lot of dangerous fumes.
Always ware safety goggles & gloves and work outside of your house. Also keep a lot of water in reach, so you can rinse it off immediately.   

If you want to use muriatic acid try this, the only thing i'm not approving is the using of a booze bottle to store the etching solution. At least add some stickers with the symbols for corrosive and the name of the stuff that is inside  ;)
http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/?ALLSTEPS

Quote
il try heating the solution next time. it should absorb more copper at temperature. i did apply considerable agitation, i just tilted the pan back and fourth. i considered building agitator machine out of legos, but because i didnt know what to expect from the process, decided against it for the first attempt. which is good because i know that 2 axis agitation is necessary,  and it is also necessary to elevate the double sided boards so both sides get equal flow.
Try to etch it vertically, tupperware has some useful boxes for that kind of work.
Also try to get a pump to blow air inside the etching solution via a L-shaped tube on the ground.
Together with a little movement of the PCB this should be working like here:
http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/530328/SPEZIAL-AeTZMASCHINE-TYP-2030/2512150&ref=list
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on June 17, 2012, 03:23:43 pm
im probibly not going to go with anything fancy, really. the etch method is adequate. and only costs me $5, and i figure i can etch another similar sized board with the remaining peroxide and vinegar. i certainly dont want to blow money on safety gear.  flipping the board with my bare fingers didnt leave me any worse for ware. if i go with anything it will be ferric chloride and other common pcb etchants. i dont mind agitating for 30 minutes, its certainly lest time than i spent soldering together the vias.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Al-Rik on June 17, 2012, 04:45:43 pm
that's sensible.  :yes:
I work with this kind of chemicals each day and have access to professional equipment. Some of the recipes I found on various websites are even in a professional lab dangerous.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: jr2 on June 17, 2012, 07:47:59 pm
http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/?ALLSTEPS

Hey, just an FYI, if you notice that the URL gets borked because of strange symbols, you can fix it like this:

Code: [Select]
[url]http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/?ALLSTEPS[/url]
To get this:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/?ALLSTEPS (http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/?ALLSTEPS)


That's also handy for stuff like google.com (http://google.com), which normally doesn't get caught as a url.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: azile0 on June 27, 2012, 04:23:37 am
I've -tried- to follow this thread, but I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I'm not in the least bit techno-savvy.

From what I read in the OP, you're trying to build a cockpit that runs Freespace, correct? Like the sit-in arcade flight sims?
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: Nuke on June 27, 2012, 05:15:29 am
first off oshw = open source hardware.

second off the idea was to generate a system of gauges that you can use to build a cockpit

after a little theoretical discussion on the idea, i decided to actually build something, which is still a wip, though ive been puting it off due to fishing season.

that was followed by a lengthy discussion about the chemicals involved in etching circuit boards.

and then you come in all confused about the thread.
Title: Re: OSHW and Freespace. Would you buy parts for building an fs cockpit simulator.
Post by: torc on June 27, 2012, 09:39:58 am
nice topic.... i like it :yes: