Author Topic: Vasudan history  (Read 24034 times)

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Offline Eishtmo

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Actually, a working type thing.  Since we're already delving into ancient Terran history (the U War, which is not canon), might as well try doing something with the Vasudans.

Let's start with what we know of the Vasudans.

1)  They're an Empire, ruled by an Emperor.
2)  They're homeworld is a desert that was barely habitable in the first place.
3)  Technolgoically, they're on par with the Terrans.
4)  They're very like Terrans in many ways.
5)  They're religious.
6)  They had a parliament.
7)  Said parliament was dissolved by the Emperor.
8)  The Imperial government has existed for nearly 10,000 years.
9)  Vasudan tactical doctrine is willing to sacrifice power for volume (the Mekhu).
10)  Despite being woefully inferior, the Vasudans continued to use the Anubis fighter for years on the grounds that it was "cheap to produce."
11)  Vasuda Prime is intensly resource poor.

Okay, that's enough.  Not all of these will come into play in this thing, but they might.

Let's start with the age of the Empire.  10,000 years is a long time, a very long time, so we can safely assume that it has not ruled the whole of Vasuda for that entire time.  There is no evidence to establish when the Vasudan parliament was created, however given that the Emperor was able to effectivily dissolve it, one could say that it probably wasn't very long before the 14 Year War, at most two or three generations.  The reasoning here is that if Khoson (or however you spell his name) did not have the idea in his head that he could be absolute ruler of the Empire, say from hundreds of years of being the way things are, he might never have even considered dissolving it.  However, if his grandfather had been an absolute ruler, he might easily approve of the idea.  So the parliament was likely formed in the recent past, perhaps two generations prior to Khoson taking the throne.  We're looking at less than one hundred years prior to the war.

With that in mind, let's explore a little about how the Vasudans likely expanded from Vasuda.  First, the world they live on is resource poor, especially when it comes to water.  This likely kept the population of the planet in check, making it easier for one Emperor to rule it all (backing the idea that parliament is a recent creation).  Now, what happens if, say the government loops a comet, with its vast resources of ice, into orbit.  The price of water drops, and the population explodes.  An exploding population without an exploding availability of jobs leads to poverty.

Poverty plus religious nature does not necessarily lead to religious uprisings, but it could.  Vasudan tactical doctrine, which dictates volume over power, seems to indicate that it did.  After all, would you rather a big gun that would insta kill one enemy every second, or a small gun that would knock down 10 every second, when a hoard of religious nutjobs willing to die for their cause come running at you?

Okay, now what's the Emperor to do with all these people he never had to deal with before.  Artificially raising the price of water might work, but that could kill millions.  More humane solution:  Get them off the planet.  Now there is no evidence to say that the Emperor was humane except for the fact that there still is an Empire and not a smoldering pit of what was once a race.

Now, this is all before subspace (ancient, ancient history), but it sets up what happens next.  With the limits of light speed, the Emperor's absolute rule no longer applys to the distant colonies, so they're ruled by governers.  NOTE:  The Emperor, with even our level of technology, could easily rule the entire planet of Vasuda.  Okay, so the governers kind of get used to their remote status, the ability to rule themselves if you will.

Then subspace is discovered.  While I can't argue this with any backing, I suspect the Vasudans might have discovered inter subspace with intra.  At the moment that's neither here nor there, just my thought on that.  It does, however, make one wonder why they hadn't (according to my 14 Year War timeline) discovered Antares earlier.  My only explination is that the node to Antares is way out there, farther than most of the Vasuda colonies, and thus just plain missed.

With subspace, any absolute ruler worth his salt would start pushing for greater control over the far flung colonies, which they probably don't like.  Relativily independent colonies plus new technology plus absolute ruler trying to use technology to gain more control over colonies equals civil war.

Likely, the colonies formed the parliament and began waging war against the Emperor.  Who knows how long this went for or how it went, but eventually the economy, which was already shaky to begin with, probably collapsed and forced both sides to the table.  The result was a deal between the Emperor and the parliament which formed the Parliamentary Vasudan Empire (or the other way around if you like, both are correct).

Now, given that the Emperor was able to later dissolve the parliament, it must be reasonable to assume that the power was divided more or less equally between the two parties.  A shrewd ruler could, with a little positioning, lead the Vasudan people as a whole to believe that 14 years of warfare and losing the homeworld was the result of the parliament screwing up.  This gave him enough leverage to remove parliament and reestablish absolute rule.  In other words, the war was, in part, prolonged by one man (Vasudan) wanting to do things his way.

Well, that's a start.  Any other opinions?
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Offline Taristin

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Quote
11) Vasuda Prime is intensly resource poor.


And the entire goal of Vasudan space exploration was to gather resources, was it not? Sort of like Japan in World War 2, then?

Correct me if I'm not understanding this...

As the empire expanded to other worlds, and new 'governers' began taking control, they had their own 'Unification War' to rebel against Khonsu? Then they managed to ally together, form a government with eachother, then with Khonsu. Found the Terrans, engaged in a war, and when it became clear that they were not going to succeed, the 'Vasudan people' rebelled against the parliament and restored Khonsu to the throne?
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Offline Ace

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During the restoration period, it is safe to assume that there was a rebellion to reinstate the Imperial bloodline into power (Khonsu II being the heir) Khonsu II was also very pro-terran and his administration consists of master economists as despite loosing their homeworld (as did the Terrans by loosing the node to Sol) the Imperium did not suffer the same economic hardships at the GTA or the Terran blocs.

Part of my dislike of the unification war as a concept for the Terrans is because the GTA and GTVA are just that, alliances. The GTVA is simply a group of formal treaties brining together the Terran blocs and the Vasudan Imperium, while the GTA is probably a similar alliance since the colonies so quickly consolidated themselves into the blocs after contact with Sol and the main body of the GTA was lost. (lack of trust in the old GTA treaties was also inspired by the Hades Rebellion)

If there was a unification war, it should have been contained in Sol and the GTA was formed out of necessity due to off-world exploration, claims, and to prevent conflict. If anything a "Unification War" would have been a cold war between several superpowers in Sol that might have led to groups secretly supporting terrorists, pirates, etc. which then had to come to an end before it escallated too far. (Like Independence War) A cold war like this as opposed to an all out war matches well with the summary mentioned on your site.

Anyway that wasn't the tangent I wanted to go on, back on the main topic :p

In FS2 it is mentioned that the Parliament was known for its corruption, it seems generally agreed here that a small group of people held control over the wealth and power of the Vasudan people under the guise of a 'democracy.'

Probably the old Imperium united the Vasudan people, and shortly before (a generation or so) contact with the Terrans it was overthrown by the Parliament, probably claiming they were freeing the people from kings. Like the communist revolution they became as corrupt as the government before.

Khonsu II during the reconstruction however was able to play on the shakened beliefs of the Vasudan people, and rallied them behind him and promised a new future. He's Aken Bosch, but not genocidal.

If anything, the mindset shown of the Vasudans is very similar to communist Russia "quantity is a quality of its own" and so modeling the Parliament after it would be a good idea.

The GTA makes more sense as a loose alliance as opposed to a true government, it is NATO.
Ace
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Quote
Originally posted by Ace
During the restoration period, it is safe to assume that there was a rebellion to reinstate the Imperial bloodline into power (Khonsu II being the heir) Khonsu II was also very pro-terran and his administration consists of master economists as despite loosing their homeworld (as did the Terrans by loosing the node to Sol) the Imperium did not suffer the same economic hardships at the GTA or the Terran blocs.

Part of my dislike of the unification war as a concept for the Terrans is because the GTA and GTVA are just that, alliances. The GTVA is simply a group of formal treaties brining together the Terran blocs and the Vasudan Imperium, while the GTA is probably a similar alliance since the colonies so quickly consolidated themselves into the blocs after contact with Sol and the main body of the GTA was lost. (lack of trust in the old GTA treaties was also inspired by the Hades Rebellion)

If there was a unification war, it should have been contained in Sol and the GTA was formed out of necessity due to off-world exploration, claims, and to prevent conflict. If anything a "Unification War" would have been a cold war between several superpowers in Sol that might have led to groups secretly supporting terrorists, pirates, etc. which then had to come to an end before it escallated too far. (Like Independence War) A cold war like this as opposed to an all out war matches well with the summary mentioned on your site.

Anyway that wasn't the tangent I wanted to go on, back on the main topic :p

In FS2 it is mentioned that the Parliament was known for its corruption, it seems generally agreed here that a small group of people held control over the wealth and power of the Vasudan people under the guise of a 'democracy.'

Probably the old Imperium united the Vasudan people, and shortly before (a generation or so) contact with the Terrans it was overthrown by the Parliament, probably claiming they were freeing the people from kings. Like the communist revolution they became as corrupt as the government before.

Khonsu II during the reconstruction however was able to play on the shakened beliefs of the Vasudan people, and rallied them behind him and promised a new future. He's Aken Bosch, but not genocidal.

If anything, the mindset shown of the Vasudans is very similar to communist Russia "quantity is a quality of its own" and so modeling the Parliament after it would be a good idea.

The GTA makes more sense as a loose alliance as opposed to a true government, it is NATO.


Great job! that makes sence alot. This would also fit the the Ref Bible for FS1, that the War started out in a show of arms/Non fireing but show of power, I think it could of been dune by both sides, and that the bible said that they share the same fears. One could say that they both played a part in the start of the 14 year War.

This is all linked to what you said and that the both sides when they first met would of for the most part be happy to find another rase like them, but there would be a small amount of people that would fear change and this could of led to a small take over of the to factions standing guverments Ala see the anime Gundam Wing they had a faction that took over in just a few months, and seeming as this is space it would be ok to say that when the show of power was dune by both sides, small parts of the two fleets under the fear of change could of been taken over easly and then they would of shot at one another, thus the rest would fallow sute.

And so my cuncultions are that both sides are to blame for the starting of the war, and that we as inperfect life forms should model it after that Idea. The Bible said that, and I quote: "Freespace is more than just a War jurnal. It's a reallistic look at the sacrifices one must be willing to make for the sake of our speaciss.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2003, 10:53:01 am by 194 »
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Offline Eishtmo

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I agree SG, both sides are to blame for the war.  They likely did it for their own, internal issues that had little to do with territory, ideology, xenophobia or anything else.  Basically, it's a buch of corrupt politians starting a war to get votes and money.

One thing I want to clear up.  In my eyes, the Emperor was never removed from power, he gave up about half his power to the parliament.  Khonsu (thanks for the spelling BTW) was the Emperor during the end (and probably the bulk of) the 14 Year War.  He held actual power, and used it to try to debunk the parliament who played the "I'm a democracy" game against him.  It was only after the Great War did Khonsu have enough popular support (not necessarily a rebellion, mind you) to try to dissolve the parliament.

As for the economic issue, I don't think he had super economists on his side.  What helped the Empire recover was the fact that Vasuda Prime was a dump.  It had little of value, so most industry moved both off planet and out of system.  When Vasuda Prime was vaped, it was an emotional shock, but not a serious economic one.  On the other hand, Sol was the center of Terran science and industry, and without it the GTA barely had a leg to stand on.

Now on to arguing the U War, again.  A Cold War is actually the perfect description of the events leading up to the discovery of the node and the start of the war.  With the discovery of the node, by only one Solar nation (as the current U War storyline is set, and something I don't think you would know), events moved in such a way that it went hot, launching the U War itself.  The war ends when the various nations kind of realize that it isn't working and form the GTA.

That's the problem you have with the Unification War, I think, is the name.  'Unification' implys 'conquest,' but this isn't how the war ended.  If anything, its probably more like how you want it than you know.  We're still shaking out the details of course, but let's get past the U War already, it's making my head hurt.

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I was busy at a funeral.  Later.
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Offline Taristin

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Quote
Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
You're welcome on the spelling, but please, Tell us more. I wish they taught this in school. :D


I know this kind of stuff would be good for like a history/fiction compaire paper, or even better a book!
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Offline Eishtmo

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Quote
Originally posted by StarGunner
I know this kind of stuff would be good for like a history/fiction compaire paper, or even better a book!


Well, that's kind of the idea.  The Freespace Universe is pretty bare bones compared to most, with little in the way of details.  So, using what we do know along with a touch of history and an imagination, I tried to cobble together the general outline of events.  I used the same logic for the timeline and the history of Sol prior to and through the Unification War.

It's mostly for fun, of course, and will never be "official" or even canon.
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Offline Flaser

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I'm back in business.
I got into the Budapest University of Technology and Economics. I'm going to study Mechanical Engineering.

I really like the idea of doing the Vasudan history as well.
*BTW Eishtmo could you have a look at my pre-U-war chronology and see if there's stuff in it we could use?

What I thought could make sense would be adding another element to the whole:

Tribal traditions.

Now I'm thinking about pretty much the arabian concept of a tribe.
After all most of Vasuda is like a desert, so ther could be tons of similarities.

It also explains their maniac and fundamentalist side. With the idea of a static and hierarhic society, the very concept of individualism that's the own of Terrans is completly alien for Vasudan people.

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My idea sorta goes like this:
In the begining most Vasudans were living in small tribes that date back to the prehistorik times.

In the rare places where resources are availible kindoms are found - they resemble the ancient Egypt with god-kings and queens.

These empires manage to hold on their own, but for the lack of resources they can't control more than a couple of cities. (These are essentially polysses)

The revolution comes when these kindoms come into contact with the tribes.

Either a powerful tribe (or Hord - someone like Ghingis Khan could manage a feat like this) took hold of a more powerful kingdom or a kindom adopted a tribe.

The result was a society that had the resources of a settled civilisation with the mobility and dynamism of the nomads.

A culture like this could finally take over other cities and expand its boundaries.

The very problems with this set-up is this ability.

As long as they can expand the conquere stabilises the system.

When they grow too big - the empire collapses and then it's left with an array city states and hordes of nomads.

The later could form the base of an aristocracy, that would dvell on the settled.
This is a semi Middle Age period.

However the lack of resources confines the conflict to a relativly small scale and takes a lot of time.

The Imperium mentioned earlier would arise from a thouzands of years of struggle.
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The Vasudan Empire's power is based on two pillars:
-The tribal heritage that confines them to a hierachic society with complete thrust in the leader and a will to sacrifice anything for the sake of the group. It also creates a sense of unity in the society as whole, but slows down democratic reforms and researh in general. On a political level this creates an intense stuggle for domination and a corrupt bureocracy.
The tribal view of like is a strange mixture of dynamism - the constant change of the nomadic life and the struggle for power-, and a rigid conservatism that tries to preserve the group with cruel and extremely strict traditions.

-The Imperial heritage predates to the ancient city states and empires. It's base is a fundamental one. It's the idea of an empire and the enlightened wisdom of a static world. Unlike the nomads their civilisation is more democratic and the king - or emperor - rules by a set of rules. This explains how can an all powerful god-emperor be justful and aproved. Although all powerful the existence of law makes him abide to his own ones.  

The Imperium has united the whole of Vasuda.
The Emperor has gained power as a tribesman, so his power was quite firm, but the hertage system caused a lot of conflict.

So as the time progressed the imperial line was forced to align themselves with the ancient idea of ruler - and in doing so they involunterly enforced a democratic change that later led to the forming of the Vasudan Parlament. (This whole process is similar to the absolutism that existed in Europe).

When the Parlament was dissolved the emperor actually enforced the imperial facet of his power and removed a tribalised structure.

The dual heritage of an emperor creates a constant conflict, where he has to merge two radically different concepts.

It's no wonder most succesful emperors were scholars and philosophers as well.
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My thougths on the matter ... duh!
My official thoughts on the matter are as follows:

The -V- gods are very good sci-fi readers. Thus they reproduced what they had read, either conciously or unconciously...

-On the Vasudans ...

I firmly believe that the -V- gods took Honor Harrington's Greysonites and ran with it. In that "Honorverse" universe, the Protector "Benjamin" re-took power from the lords that controlled it after generations of eroding the Protectors' power, on the basis of "External threat", which was the case. WHat this translates to in our case?

-The parliament could gradually gain more and more power and with it, a substantial Bureaucracy AND corruption. Merchants and Government contractors could have helped.
-Khonsu could have taken it back "because of Immediate, clear and present danger"

--> On the unification war...
It brings to mind the "traditional" classification on probably all sci-fi space opera, of either Inner worlders (fat, happy and with a big population) and outer worlders (the prodigal sons of inner worlds, the new frontiers, pioneers and such, scarcely populated)-->aka Starfire  

OR

--> Like in Man-Kzin wars, in each Terran populated world there are those who settle on the oxygen breathing worlds (heavy worlders) and the other ones who settle on the asteroid belt and use it for a living (the "belters"). You can imagine the tension between them, and the gradual lapse into war. Imagine an asteroid hurled into Earth...

I like the thougths I read so far. Let us keep the conversation going...
If you want to be ready for Wing Commander Saga: The Darkest Dawn, then download and play the prologue first.

Here,

http://www.wcsaga.com/downloads/files/download/releases-prologue-setup-exe.html

Then, while waiting for the Darkest dawn, Download Starshatter 4.02

http://www.starshattermods.com/infusions/pro_download_panel/download.php?did=214

You 'll understand why once you have.

 
A link you probably all know, just in case 1 of you doesnt...
http://pub11.ezboard.com/fjtofrm11

Has literally TONS of info!
If you want to be ready for Wing Commander Saga: The Darkest Dawn, then download and play the prologue first.

Here,

http://www.wcsaga.com/downloads/files/download/releases-prologue-setup-exe.html

Then, while waiting for the Darkest dawn, Download Starshatter 4.02

http://www.starshattermods.com/infusions/pro_download_panel/download.php?did=214

You 'll understand why once you have.

 
Wow... you guys really thought about this didnt you? Or did this come from a source or manual or... or what?

 

Offline Knight Templar

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Eishtmo has a big imagination and a lot of time.

And somebody should tell you about bumping topics and such.
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Um... what is this about bumping topics exactly? Is bringing back dead topics really such a bad thing?

 

Offline DragonClaw

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Yes, because the information you are bumping is generally outdated and incorrect.

 
o_0 but this information isnt out-dated is it? I mean, since you guys arent even done with Chapter 1 then... how much further could it have been updated?

 

Offline Lightspeed

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do not bump old threads. Tends to confuse people and cause disorder in the forums :)
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Offline Taristin

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Also tends to get threads locked... From experience, atleast...
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Jesus... well I'll try and not do it anymore. Sorry for the minor inconvienience.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Bah.  It's okay, TC.  If you have a good reason, bumping is fine. :)