[KeldorKatarn]

Can I ask you something? What's your point?
You wipe away every single argument that's presented to you by over 5 people now. What do you want us to say? Ok you won, they are 50 meters long? Fine... To be honest, I don't care how long they are. You asked, I gave you an asnwer presenting you simple facts and you chose to ignore and belive your own idea. That's ok, and don't take this the wrong way, but I wonder why you asked in the first place.

[Mancubus]

Nice pics - my only question would be "how can you make that claim" ?  20% shorter ?    I can see both of them being lined up ...and the Arrow's Cockpit area simply being LARGER (by a few meters maybe ?) than the one the modern Fighter Jet has ?

no it isn't. you can see seat in the FMV and it fits in the cockpit just as in F-22. And, if you are used to lenght given in feet , you just may not 'feel' how long meter is (I don't mean to offend you. i just know that while somone is used to some values it may be hard to se to a different system. Although I know that the foot is around 1/3 of a meter, when i read that someone is 6 foot tall i first imagine him as an extreme giant) few meters longer would mean that there wold be place for 2 or even three persons (!) inside, while it is clearly visible that there is for one.

but, as Keldor said, the discussion is getting pointless...

[AlekTrev006]

To answer Keldor's most recent comment:   - What's the point ?   I always thought Discussion in a online Discussion-Forum was it's own purpose.  In other words...talking about something with people who like the same thing you like (Wing Commander in this case) and just having an enjoyable back-and-forth debate on a subject is fairly normal in most other forums around the internet, and to a lesser extent, even in person to person conversations.

To say I "wiped aside" the arguments presented is not really fair.  It implies I just ignored what was said.  Instead the TRUTH is that I presented counter-facts and mentioned some things that maybe the people who had made some prior arguments had not thought about themselves.  That's what an "exchange of ideas" is all about.

As for my ORIGINAL point to the thread.... if you look back, you'll see that NOBODY really addressed any of the main questions I'd asked at the outset which were:

How big were the Terran Heavy Carriers supposed to be in SAGA - how big did the people here think they "really were" in "real Wing Universe" - esp. if you consider a Ranger-light carrier is 720-meters... how much bigger were the people here suggesting the Heavy Carriers like Lexington, Kennedy, etc. were ?   



Were Kamekh Corvettes still in use in the latter parts of the Kilrathi War...would they appear in SAGA's Main Campaign ?


What did people think the size of the Vesuvius Super-Carrier REALLY was (as shown in the live-in-game-video-sequences from Wing-IV, etc.) ?


What did people think the size of the mighty Kilrathi Dreadnought really was (based on in-game-video evidence from pretty much every scene the D-nought appears in during Wing-III) ?

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Those were my "original-point questions" when starting the thread.  It devolved a bit into other discussion because nobody really came forward and said, point by point, what they felt the answers were to those original 4-questions. 

[KeldorKatarn]

First of all, you were not discussing, you presented your opinion. And when we stated ours or presented sources you didn't discuss our arguments with us you tried to disprove everything we said by merely dismissing it because it was opposite to what you thought. And you mostly didn't even present any real arguments yourself.
That's no wonder however since for something like this, where no "real" facts exist, all one can state is an "opinion" based on story elements. There is simply no correct or incorrect since nothing we talked about exists in reality.
So all we could do would be the "exchange of opinions" that you suggested. But everytime we gave you our opinion, instead of listening to it, finding it interesting and leaving at that you tried to explain to us why our opinion is faulty or wrong and why yours is more right or precice. And as I said, when talking about opinions such words are simply undefined and therefore discussing them is pointless.
How do you propose anyone shall prove to you how big a ship that doesn't exist really is. Many people offered you sources on which an estimate could be based but you dismissed every single one of them.
So let's just leave it at that alright? If I find a woman beautiful you'll find it hard to find arguments to convince me otherwise. But right now you're trying exactly that.
You've heard our opinions about various sources, about various ship sizes and about sci-fi sources in general. That's all we can offer.

And about your original questions: I don't know how anyone else feels here, but for myself I can say "I honestly don't care even the slightest bit how large a Lexington class carrier is, or how big the vesuvius is in real life measurements. It's big, it looks cool, it was fun to blow up, and that's pretty much all I was ever interested in."
And I don't want to speak for the Saga crew since I don't have any right to, but I do at least imagine that they worry less about sizes of ships right now but about getting their missions scripted between all their real life commitments they are bound to have.

[AlekTrev006]

You have a strange concept of "discussing" my friend.   I did indeed talk about what you put forward, then put forward counter-evidence for my position.  I don't know what else would be considered discussion if not that ?   No one is yelling....no one is being insulting....etc. etc... so you can't really suggest it was a "Shouting match" or a "rude exchange" - it was a discussion !  How else would one define it ?

And if you feel that if someone disagrees with you on something, that they are "merely dismissing" your point-of-view...well, that's rather narrow-minded of you.  I have tried to consistently use some factual in-game evidence for the things I've suggested here.

And as I noted originally...my main point was to ask 4-major questions...none of which had been answered.   None of which YOU have even tried to answer yet - ie Vesuvius, Dreadnought, Lexington, Kamekh's, etc.

So it's not as if I've "refuted" or "argued against" what you've said on those topics, because you've not even bothered to address them specifically throughout the course of the thread !


Also...yes, we are dealing with a Sci-Fi (fantasy) subject...but that's a weak-argument for suggesting that we can't know ANYTHING "for sure" about it because clearly it's all made-up-anyways.

In Star Wars (to use another notable Sci-Fi example) - an Imperial Star Destroyer is 1600-meters long (Lucas has said he wanted them to be 1-mile long for sheer effect, but it's also a number that has been consistently stated in all Star Wars books, manuals, stories, sourcebooks, etc. ever since their creation).


For you (or anyone) to suggest "well we can't know FOR SURE how long they are.  They might only be 300-meters long....because after all, they aren't REAL ships ...." seems unreasonable.  They are the length that they are listed as being and shown as being in the films...why would you suspect they are "tricking you" or "making a number up they don't really believe in" ?

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And you say "many people offered you sources on which an estimate could be based" - ummm...."many" people ?   I don't think so.   Mancubus had the most interesting counter-claim by showing a visual picture of the Arrow and a modern Fighter-Jet ... but beyond that, people just mentioned that "The Wing Bible" had such and such length for the Dreadnought...even though this went against  the Wing-III manual and a massive volume of in-game-video evidence. 

In any case, I think your "many people" claim is unsupported.   Maybe 2-3 people.   

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Your last point is probably true... the SAGA team is more focused on in-game graphical / techie-type issues.  That's fine.  I never expected this debate or any of the others we've had here to be strictly about the "game-play" elements - OTHER than my comments on the AMG-turrets never trying to fire at Fighter targets, even when no capital ships were present in the area during a fight.

Most of the stuff I've enjoyed discussing with you guys has been the Universe-of-Wing-type of material / questions / topics.   It's probably true that I'm one of the more analytical / numbers-focused ki nd of Wing Fan...who can enjoy greatly the in-game element (which I have repeatedly Praised the SAGA-Team for making so marvelously in the Prologue !  )  ....but also has a strong knowledge-base of the Universe in which the game is set.

For me, flying against a Kilrathi Carrier that I "know" is 920-meters long.... is more "interesting"... than just flying against it and thinking "oh....that must be a big ship...yup...". 

Is it NECESSARY to know "for sure" the actual dimensions of any of the these ships ?  Not really.   But it certainly adds to the Universe and the Sci-Fi's overall credibility if it has some solid numbers for its various elements (ships, planet names, systems, story continuity, etc.).


Anyways.  You are a nice guy KK..as are the others here whom I've spoken to.  I enjoy talking with you and the others about Wing.