Author Topic: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion  (Read 22579 times)

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Offline jr2

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
That would be really cool.

 

Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
What sort of interface art change would be needed to add most of the FSO command line options to the in game menus?   I had started some work on making the menus higher resolution and wide screen before being told the game couldn't handle that.

I'm already hoping for a better interface for MVP use, but even without that, I at least have a work flow set up to make and modify the menus.
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Offline niffiwan

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
To be honest, I think a procedurally generated screen would be easier, otherwise you have the problem of needing to distribute artwork to work with retail data. While that can be embedded into the source, it's not very elegant and bloats the size of the source. I think the current idea is to use something like the F3 lab framework for a new options menu.
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Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Not sure why we would need new screens for retail.   That shipped with a UI, the same one we're complaining about now.   Though,  admittedly I don't understand what retail has to do with it at all.  When people say don't break retail I always assumed it meant the original campaign should work right.  No matter what we do adding more settings is not retail.

Anyways,  I agree a render on demand UI is a good idea.  As I mentioned,  I did some work to make upgraded assets,  but right now it's going to leave me with separate assets for 4:3 16:9 and ultra wide screen which while easy to create, is a needless duplication of assets.   Being able to generate from image elements would be much better.

I know there's been some talk of using HTML,  but I wonder why we would use a Web format rather than a format specifically designed for UIs.
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
Our elders tell stories of a glorious civilization; of people with myths of humanity everlasting, who hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear.

In testing: Radar Icons

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Procedurally generated with optional add-on artwork? (Like a MediaVPs for the menu).

That seems a bit much work for just a menu, though, if procedural can get close to stock look & feel that'd probably be easier all around.

 

Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Well I was thinking more along the lines of a full UI overhaul which a new settings screen would be a part of.

If it's made of image elements rather than a single full screen image with overlays for the buttons, it is easier to maintain has less duplication of the same items (for instance each screen has its own options button which is exactly the same),  and can be rendered to fit the screen rather than trying to stretch it, which can cause problems.
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
Our elders tell stories of a glorious civilization; of people with myths of humanity everlasting, who hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear.

In testing: Radar Icons

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Oh, I wasn't saying it that way.  It was an idea I had (procedural generated screens with optional graphics add-ons), and then I was saying 'on the other hand, that might be a lot of work if just procedurals look good enough'

 

Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Can we replicate the look of the FS2 interface with pure procedural generation?

I'm sceptical which is why I mentioned image elements and a layout engine.

I can make basic graphical elements fairly easily, so if you need any of that done it shouldn't be a problem.   It's just the back end coding I can't do.
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
Our elders tell stories of a glorious civilization; of people with myths of humanity everlasting, who hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear.

In testing: Radar Icons

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Not sure why we would need new screens for retail.   That shipped with a UI, the same one we're complaining about now.   Though,  admittedly I don't understand what retail has to do with it at all.  When people say don't break retail I always assumed it meant the original campaign should work right.  No matter what we do adding more settings is not retail.
The problem isn't with adding more settings, it's with requiring additional assets. In addition to working with the original campaign, FSO also has to work with the original assets... and nothing else. We can't require use of the MediaVPs just to do something basic like toggle a setting (hence why options keep getting shunted to the commandline).
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schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

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<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
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<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

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* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Most of the options are of limited use with the original assets anyways.

While I can appreciate not wanting to break things, FSO itself strays far from retail and most of what it has to offer is related to facilitating new assets.   I don't think moving most of the settings into a the in game options screen would break the basic functionality.

Edit: I should also point out that retail compatibility shouldn't preclude improvements made to the MVP which is what an interface overhaul would be.

You'd just have to leave in the original method of handling the interface.   

Is there a way to have a not pretty version of advanced settings for non MVP use?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 08:58:11 pm by BirdofPrey »
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
Our elders tell stories of a glorious civilization; of people with myths of humanity everlasting, who hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear.

In testing: Radar Icons

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Is there a way to have a not pretty version of advanced settings for non MVP use?

That, in a nutshell, is what AdmiralRalwood is saying.  It must be possible for a user to operate this hypothetical new settings screen if all he has downloaded is the FSO executable.

 

Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
It must be possible for a user to operate this hypothetical new settings screen if all he has downloaded is the FSO executable.
I don't think that's the case. If a user has just downloaded the FSO executable and wants to use it with retail assets then all the user can expect is that he will see the old interface. If the required assets aren't available then FSO shouldn't try to show a bad settings UI, it should instead use a set of default options that emulate how retail FS worked.

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
It must be possible for a user to operate this hypothetical new settings screen if all he has downloaded is the FSO executable.
I don't think that's the case. If a user has just downloaded the FSO executable and wants to use it with retail assets then all the user can expect is that he will see the old interface. If the required assets aren't available then FSO shouldn't try to show a bad settings UI, it should instead use a set of default options that emulate how retail FS worked.
So you think that people using retail assets shouldn't be allowed to, say, enable 3D radar? Or framebuffer shockwaves? That people with retail assets shouldn't be allowed to enable the rearm/repair completion timer?
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
That should be handled using a generic commandline option to set a configuration value (e.g. -config "3DRadar = true" or something like that). The point is that we shouldn't try to implement something using only retail assets. That would severely limit what we could do and the solution the MVPs could implement would suffer. If someone absolutely wants to use retail assets the MVPs could create a VP only containing the resources necessary for the new UI so retail users could use that without having to install the MVPs.

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Aside from the usual grand idea of completely rewriting the interface everywhere, my suggestion would be to hack in an "advanced settings" button using the retail assets, which would pop up a not-so-pretty but functional list of extra settings. Better than nothing, even if it would be apparent it's just tacked onto the retail interface. If people don't mind looking at an ancient 1024x768 interface in the first place, they won't mind an extra tacked-on button/menu either, as long as it provides useful functionality.

You can even have a launcher flag to toggle it off, for purists...  :D

 

Offline The E

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
We already have some (albeit very custom) code for interface widgets in the engine that's used to draw the F3 lab, these could be used to build an FSO options screen. Maybe we can expand that stuff to make it skinnable.

Hell, come to think of it, the F3 lab could just as easily serve as an FSO options menu instead of just an asset viewer.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
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There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
I think you're needlessly shackling yourself to retail.

What is the point of even using retail assets in FSO?  There's the FS2 executable already.  As I said, most of the FSO changes are there to support new and upgraded assets anyways.  What exactly does FSO bring to retail?

Some things have been mentioned such as 3d radar and rearm timer.  That's not retail assets.  If that can be put in while running"retail" what is wrong with slipping a new options screen in?
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
Our elders tell stories of a glorious civilization; of people with myths of humanity everlasting, who hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear.

In testing: Radar Icons

 

Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
We already have some (albeit very custom) code for interface widgets in the engine that's used to draw the F3 lab, these could be used to build an FSO options screen. Maybe we can expand that stuff to make it skinnable.

Hell, come to think of it, the F3 lab could just as easily serve as an FSO options menu instead of just an asset viewer.
:shaking: Please don't. That code is horrible to work with and extending it will only make it worse. We already have experimental support for either SVG images or HTML which are much better solutions for this problem.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
I completely agree. Just saying that there's no need for any dependency on any specific art assets at all unless we want there to be one. Which I think we don't.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
I think you're needlessly shackling yourself to retail.

What is the point of even using retail assets in FSO?  There's the FS2 executable already.  As I said, most of the FSO changes are there to support new and upgraded assets anyways.  What exactly does FSO bring to retail?

Some things have been mentioned such as 3d radar and rearm timer.  That's not retail assets.  If that can be put in while running"retail" what is wrong with slipping a new options screen in?
Well, for one thing, they aren't assets; the 3D radar is a piece of code. The rearm timer is text that gets displayed in an existing, retail HUD element.

Another thing is that not everyone can run the retail executable. You think that people on Linux or OS X shouldn't be allowed to play with retail assets?

Finally, the number one rule of FSO is "don't break retail" for a reason. That reason is backwards-compatibility. Backwards-compatibility is something we're not going to throw out the window just because you, personally, don't see the point of using some options with retail data. This has come up before, so I'll just link to some old posts that sum it up.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.