[Mefustae]

The Christian church was the problem during the middle ages. And most other ages, too.

[Polpolion]

It's a shame... Almost all the good Popes are wasted fixing the problems of the bad ones...

[Quest_techie]

the kama sutra endorses rape, not okay with that

also not okay with the whole eunuch blowjob thing it endorses

and we might check new testament, and we might check that whole god using metaphors thing

[Ford Prefect]

eunuch blowjob thing

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that I'm not the only one who would appreciate some edification on this point.

[Goober5000]

Basically, the Church not only decided that only God could heal people

Not arbitrarily, mind you.

but that women, to quote the Malleus Maleficarum, were more likely to be witches...

'Because the female sex is more concerned with things of the flesh than men;' because being formed from a man's rib, they are 'only imperfect animals' and 'crooked' whereas man belongs to a privileged sex from whose midst Christ emerged.'

I would agree, but not for the reason given above.  Rather, the devil used Eve to get to Adam, not Adam to get to Eve.  One could interpret from that event that women are more susceptible to evil.

As for whether a particular person is in fact a witch, well, there are self-proclaimed witches around today.  But it is also quite easy for hysteria to label someone a witch without any objective rational evidence.

[Ace]

Perhaps when he ordered the Israelites to wipe out the peoples of the land of Canaan...

Excerpts from the Book of Vile Darkness

...But see that he prefaced the entire military campaign by a stern warning that the Canaanites were being destroyed on account of their wickedness.

Translation: genocide is fine, as long as we're the ones doing it.

GIVE ISRAEL BACK TO THE CANAANITES! DOWN WITH THE ISLAMOFACISTS AND ZIONISTS!

Or pull out and nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be certain...

[aldo_14]

Exactly.  Which rule is more understandable -- "Don't eat pork, because there's this whole system of biology that increases your risk of food-borne illness; but you won't learn about that for a few thousand years" -- or -- "Don't eat pork because God says not to"?

Yes, it's condescending, but 1) this is God talking; and 2) people are morons.  If you tell people that something shouldn't be done because it's bad for them, the first thing they try to do is prove you right.  Heck, God made his master plan about as plain as he could -- "Follow me, go to heaven; don't follow me, go to hell" -- and people still manage to screw it up.

And the penalty for violating dietary restrictions was ceremonial uncleanness (which was basically quarantine), not death.



Biblical rules on sex are all about economics.  Sex is valuable, and God wants to keep it that way.  Sleeping around is a good way to devalue sex until it's worth practically nothing.

Ummm....surely if God wanted to stop people getting bacterial infections, he'd just get rid of the bacteria?  Or is this one of those 'test of faith' things?  y'know, the excuse used for every piece of inexplicable suffering left on an earth supposedly overlorded by a caring diety?

Incidentally, why is sex valuable (in the bible)?  I mean, I know the reproductive advantage (well, survival of offspring advantage) of not sleeping around, but why is the act itself viewed as to be constrained (every sperm is sacred and whatnot)?  does the bible actually intimate anything that even vaguely forsees protection ala condoms and the pill, or does it only speak of knocking up a woman and then not taking responsibility for it?

Also, wasn't there a bit in the bible where god effectively gives his supporters carte blanche to do whatever they want to conquered, um, infidels?

Oh, and what's the technical definition of a witch, anyways?  Because I could say I was a warlock, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to raise an army of zombies or something.

[Wobble73]

Most modern day witches follow a pagan religion called [urlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca]wicca[/url], much of which follows druidic tradition IIRC.

[an0n]

The value of sex in the Bible is social, but it's also very tangible.

Children were treated how we treat cattle now. Strong men were paired with beautiful women, at the expense of the bride's family. And given that sexual promiscuity - or even simply a single stupid choice - can lead not only to STDs, but also to pregnancy and it's associated difficulties (which can render a woman infertile), the value of virginity was very high indeed.

And if virginity is valued, prized and protected then the economics of supply and demand come into play. There's a very high demand and a tightly controlled supply....

[Goober5000]

Ummm....surely if God wanted to stop people getting bacterial infections, he'd just get rid of the bacteria?  Or is this one of those 'test of faith' things?  y'know, the excuse used for every piece of inexplicable suffering left on an earth supposedly overlorded by a caring diety?

God wants people to choose to obey him.  If he just got rid of the bacteria, that removes the consequences of choice.  I suppose you could call it a "test of faith" if you wanted to.

Incidentally, why is sex valuable (in the bible)?  I mean, I know the reproductive advantage (well, survival of offspring advantage) of not sleeping around, but why is the act itself viewed as to be constrained (every sperm is sacred and whatnot)? does the bible actually intimate anything that even vaguely forsees protection ala condoms and the pill, or does it only speak of knocking up a woman and then not taking responsibility for it?

There's nothing in the Bible along the lines of "every sperm is sacred".  The act of sex was created by God to be a good thing, something that strengthens the bond between a married couple.  But sleeping around renders the bond meaningless, because it 1) dilutes the bond among many people; and 2) it hardens your heart: you have to immediately disregard the bond you just made with someone, because you're not likely to see them again.

As for birth control, there's nothing in the Bible that explicitly permits or disallows it.  However, whenever the ability to have children is mentioned, fertile women are described as "blessed" and barren women are described as "cursed".

Also, wasn't there a bit in the bible where god effectively gives his supporters carte blanche to do whatever they want to conquered, um, infidels?

Dunno.  You'd have to give me a quote.

Oh, and what's the technical definition of a witch, anyways?  Because I could say I was a warlock, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to raise an army of zombies or something.

Someone who relies on a supernatural power other than God to do stuff.  For example, to tell the future, contact the dead, arrange circumstances, etc.  Voodoo would qualify.

[aldo_14]

God wants people to choose to obey him.  If he just got rid of the bacteria, that removes the consequences of choice.  I suppose you could call it a "test of faith" if you wanted to.

But why does God care? Surely an omnipotent, omniscent diety is clearly above the necessity for worship or gratitude, and more than capable of instilling any values he/she/it desires in a creation.  The whole concept of faith needing testing, to me either implies a Loki-like trickster god 'playing' with humanity, or a god with limited powers incapable of shaping the world in the best way (and instead giving guidelines).  I've never understood this concept of 'God wants choice'; why would God want Man to damn itself?  Why would a caring God allow that possibility?

I guess that's the mean reason I'm an aetheist or, at the very least, rejectionist of Christian theology (and those of a similar ilk).

There's nothing in the Bible along the lines of "every sperm is sacred".  The act of sex was created by God to be a good thing, something that strengthens the bond between a married couple.  But sleeping around renders the bond meaningless, because it 1) dilutes the bond among many people; and 2) it hardens your heart: you have to immediately disregard the bond you just made with someone, because you're not likely to see them again.

So why need marriage?  Sex has an important evolutionary role in bonding between couples, but I don't see why it's restricted to marriage because no marriage is guarenteed to work, especially if you disregard the important selection role sex plays (something documented in studies) in forming a pre-marital relationship.

As for birth control, there's nothing in the Bible that explicitly permits or disallows it.  However, whenever the ability to have children is mentioned, fertile women are described as "blessed" and barren women are described as "cursed".

(loaded terminology, surely?)

So there's really nothing wrong with non-reproductive sex?  Sweet

Dunno.  You'd have to give me a quote.

This isn't actually the bit I was looking for, but it's related (Numbers)

31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
31:3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.
31:4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
31:5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of [every] tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
31:6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of [every] tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.
31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; [namely], Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
31:9 And the children of Israel took [all] the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, [both] of men and of beasts.
31:12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which [are] by Jordan [near] Jericho.
31:13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, [with] the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

This is still not it (Deuteronomy)

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

I think this was it (Deut again)

20:11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:   
20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:   
20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.   
20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

Albiet because I can't find the bloody thing I was thinking of, I suppose the above is really just a quaint aside.  I'm sure there's a nice bloody bit about killing every man, woman and child in a 'heretic' town, though.

Someone who relies on a supernatural power other than God to do stuff.  For example, to tell the future, contact the dead, arrange circumstances, etc.  Voodoo would qualify.

Is that a christian/biblical definition or a universal one?

[Ace]

  Because I could say I was a warlock, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to raise an army of zombies or something.

I hope not, since everyone knows that Warlocks summon demons, steal souls, and melt faces in PvP.

[Deniidil]

I would like to take the opportunity to state, for the record, sex is awesome.

Sex should be shared resposibility, but liberally, with other consenting adults with usage of appopriate protection in whatever type of relationship you wish to involve yourself.

A marriage that is sexless prior to existing is a marriage more likely to result in strife.  The sexual compatability of a couple is a must.

[Getter Robo G]

Sorry for the tangent, just got reminded by this snippet by Aldo: "But why does God care? Surely an omnipotent, omniscient deity" and needed to vent

BINGO! You just hit the nail on the head and my biggest roadblock to organized faith. GOD (under any name you want to use) is all knowing period. He knows Humanity is a flawed creation, he knows what acts will happen over the whole of material existence, and more importantly he knows how it will end (presumably badly, a Pyhrric victory separating the truly "faithful" from the masses probably at a ratio of 1/10,000 by my guestimation).

Here is MY big question no one seems able to answer: "If he conceptualized existence as we know it before making it (unless he/she/it was just screwing around one step at a time like a kid with a home science kit), WHY even bother making it happen when you know:

 A.) It's fundamentally flawed B.) You're ultimately and sorely responsible for creating any and ALL evil that arises from it! You can't blame "SINNERS" cause according to "THE PLAN" God's will determined that they be born sinners and die sinners... WTF? Free will my ass! I think it's a cop-out for "God", instead of taking responsibility for his screw up (creation) and saying "My bad!"

Here I am a mere Human and even I would have said to the "almighty",  "Nope that's a stupid idea. I really wouldn't do that if I were you."

(but then we wouldn't have FS2, so maybe it was worth it after all?) 

I like to think Jesus was God's way of making it up to Humanity for being a half-assed landlord...

[Goober5000]

But why does God care? Surely an omnipotent, omniscent diety is clearly above the necessity for worship or gratitude, and more than capable of instilling any values he/she/it desires in a creation.  The whole concept of faith needing testing, to me either implies a Loki-like trickster god 'playing' with humanity, or a god with limited powers incapable of shaping the world in the best way (and instead giving guidelines).  I've never understood this concept of 'God wants choice'; why would God want Man to damn itself?  Why would a caring God allow that possibility?

God wants to love people, and he wants them to love him back.  A person must be able to choose to love, or not love; or else the love isn't real.

If all God wanted were automatic worshippers, there would be no need for free will.  But true love requires an opt-in contract.

Shouldn't we regard it as a Good Thing (tm) for God to give us the dignity of making a choice?

So why need marriage?  Sex has an important evolutionary role in bonding between couples, but I don't see why it's restricted to marriage because no marriage is guarenteed to work, especially if you disregard the important selection role sex plays (something documented in studies) in forming a pre-marital relationship.

Marriage is not all about sex.  Sex is (from a holistic viewpoint) only a fringe benefit.  Marriage is all about a couple entering into a contract to love and care for one another.  You're right; no marriage is guaranteed to (or is even inclined to) work, not automatically anyway.  Marriage requires effort on both sides.

Of course sex is a good selection tool; if you plan to have sex with someone on a regular basis, it makes sense that you'd be more inclined to do it with someone you enjoy having sex with.  But a marriage that's only about sex is a marriage that's only superficial.

This isn't actually the bit I was looking for, but it's related (Numbers)
[snip]

Okay.  Midian was one of the tribes that tried to turn Israel away from God.  God is saying to repay them by wiping out their leadership (males and their wives).

This is still not it (Deuteronomy)
[snip]

Okay.  An Israelite who tries to turn a fellow Israelite to a foreign god is essentially a traitor.  God is saying here that traitors deserve the dealth penalty.

I think this was it (Deut again)
[snip]

Okay.  So God is making certain exceptions to his "wipe out everybody" clause -- namely, that if they surrender, they will live.

Albiet because I can't find the bloody thing I was thinking of, I suppose the above is really just a quaint aside.  I'm sure there's a nice bloody bit about killing every man, woman and child in a 'heretic' town, though.

There is.  Again, these are the countries that have built up a massive sin debt over many years; and their cumulative sin debt earns them the punishment of being wiped out.  God is using Israel as his instrument of punishment.

He could have used a natural disaster as his instrument of punishment, as he has on many other occasions, but he wanted to demonstrate clearly to the neighboring nations that he was the one behind it all.

Someone who relies on a supernatural power other than God to do stuff.  For example, to tell the future, contact the dead, arrange circumstances, etc.  Voodoo would qualify.

Is that a christian/biblical definition or a universal one?

Here's an applicable passage:

Deuteronomy 18:9-14

When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there.  Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.  Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.  You must be blameless before the LORD your God.  The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination.  But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so.

Voodoo would qualify.  So would certain other pagan religions.  Some Wiccans cast spells to pass their tests, or find a boyfriend/girlfriend, etc.

Sorry for the tangent, just got reminded by this snippet by Aldo: "But why does God care? Surely an omnipotent, omniscient deity" and needed to vent

BINGO! You just hit the nail on the head and my biggest roadblock to organized faith. GOD (under any name you want to use) is all knowing period. He knows Humanity is a flawed creation, he knows what acts will happen over the whole of material existence, and more importantly he knows how it will end (presumably badly, a Pyhrric victory separating the truly "faithful" from the masses probably at a ratio of 1/10,000 by my guestimation).

Here is MY big question no one seems able to answer: "If he conceptualized existence as we know it before making it (unless he/she/it was just screwing around one step at a time like a kid with a home science kit), WHY even bother making it happen when you know:

 A.) It's fundamentally flawed B.) You're ultimately and sorely responsible for creating any and ALL evil that arises from it! You can't blame "SINNERS" cause according to "THE PLAN" God's will determined that they be born sinners and die sinners... WTF? Free will my ass! I think it's a cop-out for "God", instead of taking responsibility for his screw up (creation) and saying "My bad!"

Here I am a mere Human and even I would have said to the "almighty",  "Nope that's a stupid idea. I really wouldn't do that if I were you."

(but then we wouldn't have FS2, so maybe it was worth it after all?) 

I like to think Jesus was God's way of making it up to Humanity for being a half-assed landlord...

Good points -- especially the one about FS2.

I think God decided it was worth it.  But that's probably because God can see the end of the story, while we can only see the middle.  Sam's speech from The Two Towers seems applicable here.

I know. It’s all wrong. By rights we shouldn’t even be here. But we are. It’s like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were. And sometimes you didn’t want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened?

But in the end, it’s only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer.

I would like to take the opportunity to state, for the record, sex is awesome.

Cool.

Sex should be shared resposibility, but liberally, with other consenting adults with usage of appropriate protection in whatever type of relationship you wish to involve yourself.

A marriage that is sexless prior to existing is a marriage more likely to result in strife.  The sexual compatability of a couple is a must.

Can I assume then that you're married?  Or that you're in a steady relationship?

If so, then how would your spouse/partner feel if you occasionally had sex with a random other consenting adult?

[Ford Prefect]

Sorry for the tangent, just got reminded by this snippet by Aldo: "But why does God care? Surely an omnipotent, omniscient deity" and needed to vent

BINGO! You just hit the nail on the head and my biggest roadblock to organized faith. GOD (under any name you want to use) is all knowing period. He knows Humanity is a flawed creation, he knows what acts will happen over the whole of material existence, and more importantly he knows how it will end (presumably badly, a Pyhrric victory separating the truly "faithful" from the masses probably at a ratio of 1/10,000 by my guestimation).

Here is MY big question no one seems able to answer: "If he conceptualized existence as we know it before making it (unless he/she/it was just screwing around one step at a time like a kid with a home science kit), WHY even bother making it happen when you know:

 A.) It's fundamentally flawed B.) You're ultimately and sorely responsible for creating any and ALL evil that arises from it! You can't blame "SINNERS" cause according to "THE PLAN" God's will determined that they be born sinners and die sinners... WTF? Free will my ass! I think it's a cop-out for "God", instead of taking responsibility for his screw up (creation) and saying "My bad!"

Here I am a mere Human and even I would have said to the "almighty",  "Nope that's a stupid idea. I really wouldn't do that if I were you."

The medieval mystics would argue that the concepts of omniscience and omnipotence are rooted in our own inescapably finite being. To theologians like Pseudo-Dionysius and Eckhart, God cannot be separated from God's creation in the same discursive process that separates a human from his/her creations. God is infinite as compared to our finitude, necessary as compared to our contingency, and is ontologically prior to creation, not temporally prior. God didn't create something the outcome of which is known, because this model is dependent on the temporal component of causality, which is meaningless when applied to God. Rather, God is "simultaneously" the creator and the created, the cause and the result, determinate and infinite. I think these writings tend to be conveniently forgotten because they lend themselves to a more existential relationship between people and God. God is no longer "out there", as a party in some contractual relationship of punishment and reward. Even after acknowledging God, we're still condemned to the freedom of determining our morals. (Note: I don't believe in God, but I think Christianity would benefit greatly from getting in touch with its own philosophers.)

[Quest_techie]

eunuch blowjob thing

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that I'm not the only one who would appreciate some edification on this point.

there is a bit about parlours and it goes into inferrence of eunuchs and fellation <kama sutra>

it's not all orgies and upside down sumersaults

actually, it's a lot less fun stuff then people are lead to believe

[Ghostavo]

But why does God care? Surely an omnipotent, omniscent diety is clearly above the necessity for worship or gratitude, and more than capable of instilling any values he/she/it desires in a creation.  The whole concept of faith needing testing, to me either implies a Loki-like trickster god 'playing' with humanity, or a god with limited powers incapable of shaping the world in the best way (and instead giving guidelines).  I've never understood this concept of 'God wants choice'; why would God want Man to damn itself?  Why would a caring God allow that possibility?

God wants to love people, and he wants them to love him back.  A person must be able to choose to love, or not love; or else the love isn't real.

If all God wanted were automatic worshippers, there would be no need for free will.  But true love requires an opt-in contract.

Shouldn't we regard it as a Good Thing (tm) for God to give us the dignity of making a choice?

So if people don't want to love God, why is he vengeful? You know, the whole hell bit and stuff.... sounds like a poor loser.

[Gank]

Okay.  Midian was one of the tribes that tried to turn Israel away from God.  God is saying to repay them by wiping out their leadership (males and their wives).

Okay.  An Israelite who tries to turn a fellow Israelite to a foreign god is essentially a traitor.  God is saying here that traitors deserve the dealth penalty.

So basically preaching non-christianity is a capital offence. Kinda supports the karma sutra of killing thing.

Okay.  So God is making certain exceptions to his "wipe out everybody" clause -- namely, that if they surrender, they will live.

Submit or Die. Again, not doing wonders for the image.

There is.  Again, these are the countries that have built up a massive sin debt over many years; and their cumulative sin debt earns them the punishment of being wiped out.  God is using Israel as his instrument of punishment.
He could have used a natural disaster as his instrument of punishment, as he has on many other occasions, but he wanted to demonstrate clearly to the neighboring nations that he was the one behind it all.

One would imagine natural disasters would be an event more convincing of divinity than a bunch of guys with swords and a history of violence but there ya go.

Christianity should really drop the old testament, it makes god look like a skitso.

[ToecrusherHammerjaw]

Christianity should really drop the old testament, it makes god look like a skitso.

Agreed, somewhat.  Here's my good friend Lewis Black's take on that issue (starts on it around 3:00) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jCCam6l9GY&mode=related&search=