[ThesaurusRex]

I don't know why you guys are bringing up viruses when talking about living things. A virus is not alive since it doesn't individually reproduce. Also some living things don't have motivations since they are incapable of thought. Its true that they may react to stimuli but this reaction may be a chemical or electrical process independent of thought. Sorry to be picky but microbiology is an area of interest for me.

[High Max]

A virus is like a protein packet and is much simpler than a bacteria, which is simpler than a single cell. A virus is probably composed of only about 10,000 strans of DNA. It is organic matter (meaning made of mostly carbon and water, like the carbohydrates that make up the helix of DNA, but carbohydratas only have carbon and hydrogen without the oxygen). Viruses can absorb energy and reproduce, so it must be life if defining life by its composition and action, but the simplest form that I know of.

I learn most of this stuff on my own and not in school. I don't go to school anymore and college ended long ago for me, but I never learned any biology in college and only learned a little in high school. You can learn a lot by reading online, watching satellite, and asking questions to certain people if you have a thirst for knowledge.

[ThesaurusRex]

A virus is like a protein packet and is much simpler than a bacteria, which is simpler than a single cell. A virus is probably composed of only about 10,000 strains of DNA. It is organic matter and it can absorb energy and reproduce, so it must be life if defining life by its composition and action, but the simplest form that I know of.

I dread these semantics debates and this goes way off topic. My apologies to those peoples who feel that this post is a violation of the rules. Any moderator should feel free to remove this post if they wish.
To begin, most biologist believe that life begins on the cellular level. The following list was taken from http://assets.cambridge.org/97805216/80547/excerpt/9780521680547_excerpt.pdf and edited for length.
1. Nutrition - "Living things take in materials from their surroundings that they use for growth or to provide energy."
2. Respiration - "Respiration is the release of energy from food substances in all living cells."
3. Movement -  "All living things move."
4. Excretion - "All living things excrete. As a result of the many chemical reactions occurring in cells, they have to get rid of waste products which might poison the cells."
5. Growth -  "Growth is seen in all living things. It involves using food to produce new cells."
6. Reproduction - "All living organisms have the ability to produce offspring."
7. Sensitivity - "All living things are able to sense and respond to stimuli around them such as light, temperature, water, gravity and chemical substances."

We can see from this list that a virus fails every requirement on this list. This will be my last post on the meaning of life but in your previous post there are several factual errors.

[High Max]

I dread these semantics debates and this goes way off topic. My apologies to those peoples who feel that this post is a violation of the rules. Any moderator should feel free to remove this post if they wish.

What are you talking about? You mean my post? I was just replying to yours. What do you mean violation of rules? I hope you are talking about your post prior to mine since you started it. Also, you continued going off topic with your following paragraph? You quoted my post and said "this" post. That sounds like you are referring to mine and saying it should be removed?

Edit: Or are you talking about the paragraph you made after you said that? Now I'm pretty sure you were talking about the post you were typing also by saying "my apologies". However, you should have said "my following post". Actually, to avoid confusion, you should have said those few sentences at the end of your post instead of the first paragraph after quoting me. The order in which you write things is important in language.

[Flaming_Sword]

Maybe I should have made it more obvious that the campaign currently in my mod is not really mine (since I haven't even started mine), but rather a port of another campaign by somebody else... 

[ThesaurusRex]

Edit: Or are you talking about the paragraph you made after you said that. You should say "my following post". Actually, to avoid confusion, you should have said those few sentences at the end of your post instead of the first paragragh after quoting me. The order in which you write things is important in langauge.

Yes, sorry about that. I actually was writing a different sentence when I quoted you. But then I discarded what I had previously typed and did not pay attention to the quote for some reason. So just to clarify, I would like the moderator to use his or her discretion when judging the contents of my post. Also, I will keep in mind to proof read my posts before I submit them to avoid any confusion in the future.

[High Max]

Don't worry; on HLP, as liberal as it is, people can get away with most posts, and in my opinion, get away with too much here, and mods don't seem to ever delete them. They just monkey someone or close a topic, but monkeying is rare too. You definitely won't have your post removed and I see nothing wrong with your post from any point of view.

[jkalltheway]

Personally, i enjoy when threads are derailed and discuss different things. I enjoy it on some odd level. "I for one Thank our robot overlords for granting us this opportunity!" Or something along those levels. Are Trees alive then? i dont believe that they can move? or any plant life for that matter.

[ThesaurusRex]

For plant movement, look up phototropism or gravitropism.

[General Battuta]

I don't know why you guys are bringing up viruses when talking about living things. A virus is not alive since it doesn't individually reproduce. Also some living things don't have motivations since they are incapable of thought. Its true that they may react to stimuli but this reaction may be a chemical or electrical process independent of thought. Sorry to be picky but microbiology is an area of interest for me.

You don't individually reproduce either, and your thoughts are just chemical and electrical processes.

[High Max]

They are chemical and electrical processes but I wouldn't say "just". It is "just" what we can observe. It doesn't mean that it's all there is. I think it is far too complex for it to be as simple as that.

[General Battuta]

There's nothing simple about the electrical and chemical processes going on, so you're correct in that...but, in the end, they're just electrical and chemical processes.

We're all made of stardust, and that stardust is atoms, and there's nothing more to it. Our much-vaunted thoughts are more sophisticated than those of virii, since we can perform operations they're fundamentally incapable of, but in the end it's not really much different.

[High Max]

Of course it doesn't explain consciousness and awareness or experiences of what people had even when they had flat-line brain functions (clinically-dead) and them accurately telling the doctors everything their out of body form was seeing the doctors doing when operating on them, even when dead and eyes covered completely. It is proven that just because we can't see something doesn't mean it's not there. We find new things all the time and discover new objects and materials. So much can be there that we can't see. I could say the same and say that since we can't detect or see alternate dimensions, it means they are not there. So it doesn't make sense for people to say there is no soul just because most people haven't seen them but yet we can't see other dimensions but people say they exist. That is contradictory. Also, if people encounter ghosts and all see the same thing at the same time, it can't be a hallucination because if people had hallucinations at the same time, their minds would all make up different things, not the same exact image.

Living things could have intelligence like a machine but not be aware, and there is more than stardust (there is energy, theorized dark matter and dark energy, anti-matter, and other unknown material out there) but I best not get any further into this argument. It will go too far off topic and cause one of those spiritual debates.

[Flipside]

Remember, the Shivans aren't a disease, they are a symptom

[ThesaurusRex]

I don't know why you guys are bringing up viruses when talking about living things. A virus is not alive since it doesn't individually reproduce. Also some living things don't have motivations since they are incapable of thought. Its true that they may react to stimuli but this reaction may be a chemical or electrical process independent of thought. Sorry to be picky but microbiology is an area of interest for me.

You don't individually reproduce either, and your thoughts are just chemical and electrical processes.

I would like to being by pointing out that humans also do use chemical and electrical processes. However the key phrase in my initial post was "process independent of thought" when I referred to some other living things.

By individual reproduction, I was referring to the fact that humans reproduce by releasing offspring directly from the existing organism. The reproduction of a virus is completely different since they use a host cell to make body parts and then to assemble the parts together for dispersal. It is true that human thoughts are just chemical reactions, but the difference is that our body is able to control these reactions. Some reactions may be suppressed by our brain or other parts of our nervous system, also through chemical and electrical processes. The difference is that we have these abilities why certain organism do not.

For example, humans can endure slight discomfort because they can suppress some signals and propagate others. If a man hungry man was presented with food his initial reaction would be to consume the food. However, he could force himself not to eat and he eventually will pass out and dies. He could also go against his reaction, to conserve energy and eat, by going on a jog which would expend more energy and speed up his death. Compare this to a bacteria that is lacking in necessary nutrients. When this deprived cell is exposed to the necessary nutrients it will react to this change by beginning to consume the nutrients until it reaches some kind of concentration equilibrium with the outside environment. This bacteria cannot control it's intake of this nutrient. This means that if we were to convert the nutrients entering the bacteria into some kind of substance that could not exit the bacteria. Then it would continue to take in nutrients provided to it since it would never reach the concentration equilibrium. Eventually, the bacteria would swell up from the excess substance and burst.

In these two examples, the both organism died in the end. However, their deaths were different in terms of how they died. In one case the organism died from suppression of reaction because it was able to think, and in the other example, the organism died from being unable to suppress a reaction. So human, along with blah... blah... blah..., exhibit these differences from some other organisms.

[General Battuta]

So, what you're trying to say is, humans are special because they can use electrical and chemical signals to suppress and modify electrical and chemical signals?

I don't think that's any different from what I said, except for your assertion that humans are special, which they pretty clearly aren't. We use the same mechanics as everybody else, our wiring is just more complex.

[Flipside]

Oddly enough, as a kind of aside, it's been proved that Zebra Fish, of all things, have a more effective Motor-Neuron repair system than Humans, and may hold the secret of treating Motor Neuron Disease.

Certain animals excel at certain things, humans have very complex wiring in some ways, but also have very simplistic wiring in others when compared to other members of the animal kingdom

Octopii are an excellent example of this btw, they have an unbelievable complex neurological setup.

[High Max]

Actually we are unique from every other life form since we can resist almost all our instincts. We can reprogram our biological clock at will. No other organism can just all of a sudden choose to reprogram their biological clocks or resist mating. It isn't known how humans can do things like that and manipulate our own reactions with a thought like we can. I might just be possessing my body and will shed my shell when it dies and my body is no longer of use. I can even hold in my coughing and hickups if I focus hard enough Mind over matter. Actually, resisting instincts and having a high degree of body control is part of someone having a strong mind, and many people can do that to a certain degree. No other species can do that like us.

If humans aren't special, then why protect them and why have individualism? That contradicts people saying they are not special. Why not let the human race die if you think they are not special? Why even care about the environment or our future? Those actions contradict the words of those who say we are not special.

[General Battuta]

You are wrong. Many species have this ability.

I think I'm gonna split this.

[ThesaurusRex]

Yes our wiring is more complex and that's what separates us from other living organisms. A key ability that humans have over many other organisms is our advance cognitive abilities. These cognitive abilities are derived from the complexity of our brains. It is true that when everything is broken down to it's the chemical and electrical signals are essentially what makes us do the things that we do, unless you prescribe to the belief in a soul and such. Nevertheless, human brains are different from other organism's brains in terms of what they allow humans to do.

For example, take a conscious frog and place it in cold water. Now place that cold water over a stove and apply heat to it to boil the water. The frog in the water will not react since its brain will not detect the gradual change. Now take a conscious human and try the same experiment. The person in the water will eventually leave if he or she is able and allowed to leave. If the chemical and electrical processes of the frog brain and human brain were compared the two brains would appear to be very similar. However, we can see that the complexity of the human brain does make a difference.

Warning: The experiment listed on this post has been done before, so I would advise that no one try it.