[Woolie Wool]

I always thought the VF-1s were ten times more awesome as swing-wing fighter jets than as giant robots and if Macross had kept the planes and giant robots as separate vehicles the show would have been better for it.

[Narvi]

I always thought the VF-1s were ten times more awesome as swing-wing fighter jets than as giant robots and if Macross had kept the planes and giant robots as separate vehicles the show would have been better for it.

That's completely wrong.

You know why? A swing-wing fighter can't punch its opponent to death.

[Woolie Wool]

I hate mecha melee fighting. Why would anyone even think about punching an enemy when they have a fully loaded gun? It's one of the reasons why Clan invasion-era Battletech is more interesting than most mecha universes: trying to get in close for a melee kill will usually result in your enemy PPCing your dumb ass.

[Commander Zane]

It's called "Running out of ammunition."
It happens in Macross.
Run out of ammo, use your gun as a melee weapon, or use fisticuffs.

[Aardwolf]

But if they manage to get in close enough you can't reliably aim for a sweet spot, and they've got melee weapons (or can get their ranged weapons aimed better than you can) you're ****ed.

Edit: that too.

Edit the Second: Of course, unless you can lay down suppressive fire or otherwise keep the enemy from hitting you at range, you'll never make it close enough to get a melee hit in. The thing is, though, if you can force them to take cover while you rush in to engage in melee combat, you can force them to fight on your terms. Keep them from getting their gun pointed at you, and deliver the finishing blow.

It's the same logic behind having bayonets on modern automatic rifles.

Or the Galatea / GTD Orion class of Destroyer in our beloved FreeSpace universe. If all else fails, stab the ****ers.

Actually, Woolie Wool, I believe it was you who once argued with me over the practicality of melee combat in modern warfare, and took the opposite opinion.

Not to say that giant fighting robots are exactly like modern infantry, of course.

[Woolie Wool]

It's called "Running out of ammunition."
It happens in Macross.
Run out of ammo, use your gun as a melee weapon, or use fisticuffs.

The proper strategy to use when you run out of ammo is to return to base for rearming, retreat from the combat zone, or failing that, surrender, because any other course of action ought to result in your death. Charging into melee range of an enemy armed with ranged weapons (especially when you're in a 40-foot-tall mech which makes concealment and stealth more or less impossible) is insane and I would really be happy if sci-fi properties stopped portraying this as a viable tactic.

Vehicle melee is stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

[Woolie Wool]

But if they manage to get in close enough you can't reliably aim for a sweet spot, and they've got melee weapons (or can get their ranged weapons aimed better than you can) you're ****ed.

Edit: that too.

That won't happen except in a one-in-a-million fluke chance. Stealth just isn't going to happen in a 40-ton vehicle (they're big, they're loud, and they run hot), so the enemy will know where you are, and he will shoot you (possibly while backing away, because, you know, the enemy's not going to cooperate with your whole melee plan), and you will die.

[Narvi]

I hate mecha melee fighting. Why would anyone even think about punching an enemy when they have a fully loaded gun? It's one of the reasons why Clan invasion-era Battletech is more interesting than most mecha universes: trying to get in close for a melee kill will usually result in your enemy PPCing your dumb ass.

It's an energy punch that slides through energy shields, obviously! Anyway, Macross ships have crazy durability and maneuverability, but close combat is still only an extreme last resort when it's time for the MAN IN TOWN to show those aliens WHO IS BOSS.

Mecha are silly anyway. They are just a stylistic choice, like Freespace and its non-newtonian superfighters. If you want to go with the complete realistic route, tanks would be the most plausible route. Mecha is fun only when punching is possible and (this part is important) cool-looking.

Since you bring up Battletech, I love how Battletech has mecha with so many disadvantages that it's not very clear why they even bother with them in the first place. Variable fighters are retarded on an engineering front, but their on-screen performance isn't; they do crazy g-forces and their transformations are quick, stuff like that. Battletech has fifty foot tall mecha which somehow aren't considered to be walking targets for artillery but are somehow considered instead to be prized military vehicles, which are astonishingly important to capture because of how awesome they are.

(I still love the Mad Cat Timber Wolf though.)

[Aardwolf]

True, the larger you are, the worse your chances of using stealth. But I'm sure there could be special cases, even if this particular giant fighting robot series isn't the most plausible.

For example, what about 3 weaker mechs versus a single tougher mech easily capable of dispatching one of the weaker mechs in 1-on-1 combat. 2 of the weaker mechs could pin the bigger one down without putting themselves in danger, while the 3rd could move in for a kill. Of course, under such circumstances, a small-enough ranged weapon (think 'pistol', as opposed to a 'longsword') could probably be just as good.

This is all speculation though, and dependent on the specific giant fighting robot sci-fi.

However, in general I agree that melee weapons are better for defense or when you have the advantage of stealth.

[Woolie Wool]

To me, melee combat is just the straw that breaks the camel's back for me. Seeing vehicles or enemy soldiers arbitrarily close to melee range to beat up on each otther when they're heavily armed with projectile weapons makes me livid.

Also, I never said BattleTech wasn't silly, only that after the Clans showed up with their extended-range weapons, this particular peeve of mine pretty much disappeared. I can take the walking skyscrapers with giant lasers, but I can't take the walking skyscrapers with giant lasers using their fists instead of the aforementioned giant lasers. It's just...WHY?

As for the VF-1 in particular, the plane configuration is one of the coolest-looking planes in fiction history while the battr/loid really is just another giant robot, outclassed in coolness by many of the show's other giant robots, like that one mecha that was the inspiration for BTech's Rifleman.

[Thaeris]

Anything which draws inspiration from the F-14 is bound to be awesome. This is undisputable.

Walkers in modern (or futuristic) warfare is a fascinating discussion. Arguing away the impracticalities while trying to communicate an advantage is a great argument, to say the least. I recall a cadet-led briefing at the end of last semester in AF202 where one of the former cadets attempted to discuss the viability of the "giant fighting robot." I tried to "rip him a new one," but the Captain in charge of the class managed to avert the poor fellow's demise... I think he was using Gundam as an example.

Now, if your "giant fighting robot" can do as advertised on screen, maybe it could work. This involves super artificial muscle assemblies (pneumatics would be a joke for a system like that), a nuclear reactor (for those engines and RCS batteries that would be required for that sort of maneuvering... or power in general), a shield which would AT LEAST be used to somehow reduce air resistance (Ionic Breeze?), the ever-popular inertial dampner, artificial gravity (kind of the same as the inertial dampner), unobtanium, and last and most important, magic. If you can get those to work, by George, YOU CAN DO IT!

Otherwise, no.

Or can you? Some big bipedal (or more legs if necessary) machine can theoretically step over big obstructions which a smaller, smarter vehicle might have trouble with. Thus, a walker might be a valuable combat asset in rough terrain where it can hide its unwieldy shilouette. This might also apply to urban areas as well. But to operate in these environments, a walker would probably need to be lighter and smaller, probably more like a helicopter with legs. AND what I mean by this is that the walker's frame would only be enough to carry the engines, crew, and payload (hence the helicopter comparison). Since super-agility would imaginably not be attained, the walker would behave more like a legged tank, advancing with caution and relying on infantry support. And melee? It's possible to get swarmed by infantry with anti-tank weapons like charges. So sure, give it a few flame-throwers!  

In general, I've not seen too many practical walkers from games or shows. If I had to choose one, I might well pick the Goliath from StarCraft. It actually matches my description of a practical walker in many regards, actually. Its high profile makes it a double-edged weapon (for itself and its adversaries) in urban areas (they have a hard time hiding... it does too), gives it good mobility, and it only carries what it needs. It carries a small gun used imaginably for picking off infantry (never seen in use in the game), cannon for larger ground targets (if it were real, aerial targets), and a missile battery. It also carries a single crewman.

It brings only what it needs to the battle...

But, just like StarCraft, if we do see combat walkers, ever, they'll probably be more like the powersuits used by Marines. Or perhaps like those suits seen in Ghost in the Shell...

Or maybe we'll ride on Boston Dynamic's Big Dog with a .50cal (Sandwich would approve)...

-Thaeris

[Narvi]

It's rather annoying that most series with "realistic" walkers always assume that they are going to replace tanks, instead of simply filling a specialized combat role.

I rather like how MGS4 did it. Walkers only around twice the height of a man, deployed mainly within combat areas, and they serve the specific role of anti-insurgent warfare. Mind you, they were absurdly maneuverable.

[Commander Zane]

That moo.

The proper strategy to use when you run out of ammo is to return to base for rearming, retreat from the combat zone, or failing that, surrender, because any other course of action ought to result in your death. Charging into melee range of an enemy armed with ranged weapons (especially when you're in a 40-foot-tall mech which makes concealment and stealth more or less impossible) is insane and I would really be happy if sci-fi properties stopped portraying this as a viable tactic.

Vehicle melee is stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

If they can dodge Itano Circus attacks to no end and the High-Maneuverability Missiles of Ghost fighters, and the massive barrages of 20mm, 30mm, etc rounds, while in Battroid mode, then melee combat is very possible for them.

[NGTM-1R]

I always thought the VF-1s were ten times more awesome as swing-wing fighter jets than as giant robots and if Macross had kept the planes and giant robots as separate vehicles the show would have been better for it.

The giant robot bit was specifically developed as a counterforce to a feared invasion of Zentradi infantry. The transformation makes them multi-role, always attractive to a military on a budget. Facing the possiblity of massive orbit-to-surface invasion, fixed bases cannot be relied upon to survive, so they developed G mode to provide all-terrain VTOL; arms were added so that they could reload each other in primitive field bases without needing specialized machinery that's not nearly as mobile as they are. The design is, considering what it was developed to counter, very rational.

[Woolie Wool]

The thing is, the more capabilities you give a piece of military hardware, the more it costs and the less useful it is for each of those capabilities. A Spartan ought to be able to massacre a whole squadron of Valkyries in B mode and a non-transforming Valkyrie ought to be able to massacre a whole squadron of Valkyries in A mode, due to the lack of transforming giving them more firepower, more armor, and more pretty much everything. Also a Zentraedi is a ridiculously large target. Men with laser pointers picking out targets for a battery of howitzers could defeat them (and if the Zentraedi blew up all your mobile artillery, you're already doomed anyway).

Also repairing and refitting huge war machines with hundreds if not thousands of moving parts requires specialized machinery no matter how many arms they have, unless the Valkyries have on-board fabs and magic fuel tanks that suck deuterium out of hammerspace. Giant metal sausage fingers really aren't very good for performing delicate maintenance anyway.

[Commander Zane]

Nope, just regular thermonuclear turbines.

[Thaeris]

@NGTM-1R

That in itself is reasonable, though the mechanical engineers were either (a: most likely situation) driven to absolute madness or (b: this is not likely-at all-ever...) crazy enough to get a kick out of it. A real VF-1 would be an engineering nightmare, or rather, a marvel prone to failure at best...

One could try to argue that the VTOL function makes sense while in walker mode, as the legs are engines. However, safe transition to the fighter form while acting as a walker would be exceedingly dangerous. The RCS jets on the VF-1 would need to be ungodly powerful... and in a lot of weird/often unused places. Having the walker mode for ground-only combat (though you could probably manage this in space as well) while having the flight mode for everything else would make sense...

Of course...

There's another problem which transcends all issues of practicality. A real Japanese cartoon apparently needs at least one of three factors to be notable (hell, why not have all three?):

(a.): A strange, mystical power. Often with multiple other strange, mystical terms attached to it.

(b.): Some type of strange creature or creatures. This not only goes for cratoons, anime, or Japanamation, but films as well. GOOZILLAAHHH!

(c.): Robots. Lots of robots. Often of the giant fighting variety. They need not be practical or make sense. In this case, they may be compared to the lawn orb, which is neither practical or additive to the appaerance of a lawn or garden anywhere.

I will make a disclaimer for these statements (the three points)-I'm not sure they're completely true. But they are at least evidenced circumstantially. Furthermore, if I've offended you with the terms "Japanamation" or the misspelling of Godzilla, well, that is rather amusing then...

-Thaeris

[Commander Zane]

You're forgetting the Love Triangle, every series of Macross has one.
And a very large variety of other shows that don't even have the other three points.

[Thaeris]

Disclaimer. (as seen above)

Many programs have one of those points regardless of being anime/Japanese or not. It's the factor which makes them unique and/or enjoyable. But you knew that...

For the best possible anime-spoofing experience, refer to Perfect Hair Forever.

-Thaeris

[NGTM-1R]

One could try to argue that the VTOL function makes sense while in walker mode, as the legs are engines. However, safe transition to the fighter form while acting as a walker would be exceedingly dangerous.

That's why I specified Gerwalk/Guardian as the mode for VTOL. The half-and-half of it is the only feasible way to transition in atmosphere.