[ShivanSpS]

I was thinking, if Android devices with GPU supports OpenGL, and Android itselft is based on linux, what keep us from running FS2 in an Android device? Need to compile binaries for ARM?


The E -- Edited to adjust thread title

[Jeff Vader]

Probably the same reasons that keep us from running FS2 on Iphones and such. Just replace "iOS" with "Android" and "Objective-C" with "Java".

[The E]

Unless there have been some developments I am unaware of, the objections raised in the earlier thread are still valid.
Unless you, ShivanSPS, have gained some remarkable new insight into how to port a PC program to Android, IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

[ShivanSpS]

well, while i cant do it myselft, yet, a few of my friends are android/java developers, im a C dev myselft, but i just work with C, not C++, so not objects, and only for DOS based apps.

So, what im asking is what whould be the minimum needed in order to work? as far i know OpenGL is already present on Android, so, i guess it whould take either to mod Android to run C/C++ apps or port FSO to java.

[The E]

Minimum needed to get it to work? Let's see.

-Ability to load pof models
-Ability to interpret tables
-Ability to parse missions
-Ability to process player input
-Ability to load all file formats supported by FSO
-Ability to deliver playable framerates

[ShivanSpS]

you dont need to be rude, im not asking you guys to do anything, i was asking about the problems, so see if they can be workaround, there is a lot of people trying to get native C++ apps to run on Android.
maybe its easier to install Debian on parallel on the Android device and work it from there...

BTW, devices with embedded GPU (like Tegra based, Mali-400, and a few others) shouldt have fps problems with minimum mediavps.

[Trivial Psychic]

How about a top-down FS2 Shooter?

[MatthTheGeek]

Someone did that already (the top-down that is). The search function should be able to find it for you.

[Bobboau]

ummm... you CAN run native apps on android, they have a complete secondary development chain for it called the NDK, and it compiles using C++, so porting FSO to android is more possible than most of these types of suggestions. now I am not saying it would be feasible, just potentially possible.

[Trivial Psychic]

It would certainly make it difficult to control all the flight functions.

[JGZinv]

Alternative mouse control script (mouse as joystick) concept chained to a directional swipe.   Swipe up, turn up.

Course let's not get into the whole inverted controls are better subject...

[karajorma]

you dont need to be rude, im not asking you guys to do anything, i was asking about the problems, so see if they can be workaround, there is a lot of people trying to get native C++ apps to run on Android.

It's not really about being rude.

Basically this is a "if you have to ask, you're not even remotely qualified to do it" sort of thing. Which is why people get so annoyed at the question. The level of your understanding of the problem is so far below the level of anyone qualified to fix it that any answer beyond "It's very difficult to do" is a waste of time for the person responding. You're asking for someone to spend a lot of time figuring out exactly what pitfalls would exist in order to port FS2 when you're completely unable to be able to do anything with the answer.

The fact that this question has been asked and answered repeatedly is what is beginning to fray people's nerves. Go actually do some programming on a mobile platform. Then do some coding for FSO and get to understand how the engine works. Once you're in a position where people can see that you actually have a clue about what you're attempting to talk about, you might find them more amenable. But right now, you're just asking pointless questions.

[jr2]

Isn't FSO a patchwork of C and C++ or did I misunderstand?  If so, ShivanSpS, I'm sure if you want to poke around with the engine, maybe you could find some useful things to do while you are getting familiar with it.  At least, assuming you still wanted to investigate this..

[Eli2]

Too much work.
Too little benefit.
 

[Eli2]

Maybe its codethulhu and its scope perception manipulation again.
 

[Polpolion]

Wonder if my FS2BASIC code is still lying around here somewhere...

EDIT:

Just hunted through some of my four year old posts for this. Remind me not to do that ever again.

Pfft... I could port Freespace 2 to TrueBasic.

Then do it. I'd love to see the result.

I actually think I will. I mean, it won't be "good" and it'll be more of a "remake" than a "port", but...

EDIT:

The best I could do without being able to run true basic programs on my computer:

Code: [Select]

OPTION NOLET
SET WINDOW 0,1000,0,1000
RANDOMIZE
CALL Read_image("MS BMP",BAD$,"BAD.BMP")
CALL Read_image("MS BMP",BKGRND$,"BKGRND.BMP")
CALL Read_image("MS BMP",SUBF$,"SUBF.BMP")
CALL Read_image("MS BMP",PROMF$,"PROMF.BMP")
CALL Read_image("MS BMP",ROCKF$,"ROCKF.BMP")
CALL Read_image("MS BMP",HRPF$,"HRPF.BMP")
CALL Read_image("MS BMP",DIE$,"DIE.BMP")
CALL Read_image("MS BMP",HIT$,"HIT.BMP")
CALL Read_image("MS BMP",BFIRE$,"BFIRE.BMP")
DO
   PRINT " FREESPACE"
   PRINT " 1) Ready room"
   PRINT " 2) Tech room"
   PRINT " 3) Bath room"
   PRINT " 4) Airlock"
   PRINT
   PRINT
   PRINT "Where do you want to go? Input #"
   INPUT GO
   IF  GO = 1 THEN
      CALL PLAY
   ELSE IF GO = 2 THEN
      CALL WHAT
   ELSE IF GO = 3 THEN
      CALL POOP
   ELSE IF GO = 4 THEN
      STOP
   ELSE
      PRINT "Pick another number, idiot."
   END IF
LOOP
END

!==================================================================


SUB PLAY
    CLEAR
    PRINT "What laser do you want?"
    PRINT " 1) Subach HL-7 (Damage 8)"
    PRINT " 2) Prometheus - S (Damage 12)"
    PRINT " Input number"
    INPUT GUN
    CLEAR
    PRINT "What missile do you want?"
    PRINT " 1) Rockeye (10 missiles) (Damage 30)"
    PRINT " 2) Harpoon (6 missiles) (Damage 50)"
    PRINT " Input number"
    INPUT MISS
    PRINT "YOUR WEAPONS:";
    IF GUN = 1 THEN
       PRINT "Subach HL-7";
    ELSE
       PRINT "Prometheus - S";
    END IF
    IF MISS = 1 THEN
       PRINT " and Rockeye"
    ELSE
       PRINT "and Harpoon."
    END IF
    PRINT
    PRINT
    PRINT "Press a key when you are ready."
    GET KEY PSE
    CLEAR
    !=============================

    PHLTH = 100
    DO
       BHLTH = 100
       A=rnd*800
       B=rnd*800
       DO
          FWB = FWB - 1
          FW = FW-1
          FWM = FWM-1
          !BOX SHOW $ at ,
          !32
          !122
          BOX SHOW BKGRND$ at 0,0
          BOX SHOW BAD$ at A,B
          GET MOUSE X,Y,S
          GET KEY S
          IF S=122 THEN
             IF GUN = 1 AND FW >= 0 THEN
                BOX SHOW SUBF$ at 0,0
             ELSE
                BOX SHOW PROMF$ at 0,0
             END IF
             IF X>A AND X<(A+200) AND Y>B AND Y<(B+200) THEN
                BOX SHOW HIT$ at A,B
                IF GUN = 1 THEN
                   BHLTH = (BHLTH-8)
                   FW = 6
                ELSE
                   BHLTH = (BHLTH-12)
                   FW = 10
                END IF
             END IF
          END IF
          IF S=32 THEN
             IF MISS = 1 AND FWM >= 0 THEN
                BOX SHOW ROCKF$ at 0,0
             ELSE
                BOX SHOW HRPF$ at 0,0
             END IF
             IF X>A AND X<(A+200) AND Y>B AND Y<(B+200) THEN
                BOX SHOW HIT$ at A,B
                IF GUN = 1 THEN
                   BHLTH = (BHLTH-30)
                   FWM = 10
                ELSE
                   BHLTH = (BHLTH-50)
                   FWM = 15
                END IF
             END IF
          END IF
          PAUSE 0.1
          !PLOT TEXT, at x, y:
          IF FWB >= 0 THEN
             BOX SHOW BFIRE$ at A,B
             PHLTH = PHLTH - (RND*4+6)
             BAR =(100 - PHLTH)
             SET COLOR "GREEN"
             PLOT TEXT, AT  BAR,10 : "|"
             PLOT TEXT, AT 101,10 : "YOUR DAMAGE"
             SET COLOR "BLACK"
             FWB = (RND*5+4)
          END IF
       LOOP UNTIL BHLTH >=0 OR PHLTH >= 0
       IF BHLTH >= 0 THEN
          KILL = KILL + 1
       END IF
       IF PHLTH >= 0 THEN
          CLEAR
          PRINT " YOU SUCK AT THIS GAME!    !! YOU LOSE!!"
       END IF
    LOOP UNTIL KILL = 10 OR PHLTH >= 0
    IF KILL = 10 THEN
       PRINT "YOU ROCK AT A GAME THAT TAKES NO SKILL WHATSOEVER TO PLAY!  !"
    END IF

END SUB

!======================================================================
SUB WHAT
    PRINT " This is a 'port' of the most basic aspects of the game of Freespace 2 to True basic."
    PRINT " When you go into play mode, you get to select guns. Some do more damage than others"
    PRINT "  Put your mouse pointer on the bad guys. 'Z' shoots your lasers,  Spacebar shoots a missile"
    PRINT " Click on bad guys to destroy them."
    PRINT
    PRINT " Back to the main hall! *press key"
    GET KEY PSE
    CLEAR
END SUB
!=====================================================================

SUB POOP
    PRINT " You unzip your pants. Then you remember that this is a game"
    PRINT " and you get up from your computer desk and walk to the real"
    PRINT " bathroom. Thank goodness! *press key"
    GET KEY PSE
    CLEAR
END SUB
Truly an insult to Freespace.

I "stole" some screenshots off of here for a background, cropped an astaroth out of one, and added some cheezy ms paint effects.

EDIT2: For those of you that were around at the time I don't need to explain. For the rest of you, don't judge.

[Mikes]

As someone who put some time into android... just forget it.

You'd spend hours over hours on end and still end up with an end product that is in every way the crappy little brother of the real FSO.

And for what? So you can play with your finger? (Which seriously is one of the worst parts of Android Games... touch controls just suck compared to any alternative.)
So you can play mobile? Can already do that with a 3-4 pound laptop and not be limited/crippled by Androids shortcomings.

Oh you mean truly mobile, without keyboard, without joystick, without monitor, without proper horsepower... etc... well if you attempt that, you will end up with a mobile game with all its limitations... i.e. you'd barely recognize FSO anymore and always wish you were playing the real thing instead.

I looked at the mobile gaming market because i travel a lot and this is what you get: True "mobile games" that always suck in comparison to real games and "ports" of real games that always suck due to horrible controls and/or lack of horsepower. After fiddling around for 2 months I noticed I just don't play mobile games anymore. There literally isn't ANYTHING on that platform worth the time... despite all the surely talented and brilliant people attempting to port everything and their grandmother, the end result is always so utterly inferior that it's well... kinda "cool" that it runs on a phone/tablet now... but utterly atroxious to actually play (especially when you always know how much better experience would be on a desktop/laptop). Bottomline: That time travelling is much much better spent otherwise (99% of my time on my Android device is taken up by the Kindle App now )

Trust me on this. I know exactly where you are coming from. I know the Euphoria of "OMG I can play this on my cellphone/tablet now! OMG"...  Been there, done that. After you actually finished 2-3 mobile games and have seen how shallow they are... you try the ports... and after you play them for a while and realize how utterly crappy the "experience" of playing them on Android is... you go back to making time for the real thing.

Too uncomfortable sitting in front of a desk? Well in that case, if it's about the "best" FSO experience... that money you'd need for an Android/iOS device is much better spent on a projector, so you can have Freespace literally all over your wall with a 2-4 meter picture and play from the couch or bed (which works perfectly with the proper furniture next to the Couch to support your controls, or with simply laying down in bed with a keyboard to your left and joystick to your right while you project onto the ceiling).

[Eli2]

Something that will actually work, is to use an android tablet as an input device.
So you could have cool looking virtual ship controls you can really touch.

I have code here that allows you to input control actions via UDP, and some rudimentary android code.
If someone would come up with a cool looking and working android app.
I could try to get this patch trunk ready.

[ShivanSpS]

you dont need to be rude, im not asking you guys to do anything, i was asking about the problems, so see if they can be workaround, there is a lot of people trying to get native C++ apps to run on Android.

It's not really about being rude.

Basically this is a "if you have to ask, you're not even remotely qualified to do it" sort of thing. Which is why people get so annoyed at the question. The level of your understanding of the problem is so far below the level of anyone qualified to fix it that any answer beyond "It's very difficult to do" is a waste of time for the person responding. You're asking for someone to spend a lot of time figuring out exactly what pitfalls would exist in order to port FS2 when you're completely unable to be able to do anything with the answer.

The fact that this question has been asked and answered repeatedly is what is beginning to fray people's nerves. Go actually do some programming on a mobile platform. Then do some coding for FSO and get to understand how the engine works. Once you're in a position where people can see that you actually have a clue about what you're attempting to talk about, you might find them more amenable. But right now, you're just asking pointless questions.

I understand, BUT the older discusions are about porting the engine to a diferent language, like Java. Or try to run on Windows mobile or Iphone based OS.
Android is a diferent matter, first off, it does support OpenGL(in fact you can indeed run OpenGL games for x86 using Dosbox), and units with embedded GPU has enoght power to run the FSO graphics engine. Second, its Linux, and people have had some success in compiling C/C++ projects on it.
So its not imposible like trying to port the game to Java...

As for input discussions, this is not the time to discuss that.

Anyway, i think the first step will be trying to compile the bins for Linux ARM, maybe a Ubuntu running in parallel with Android on the tablet.

[Iss Mneur]

I understand, BUT the older discusions are about porting the engine to a diferent language, like Java. Or try to run on Windows mobile or Iphone based OS.
Android is a diferent matter, first off, it does support OpenGL(in fact you can indeed run OpenGL games for x86 using Dosbox), and units with embedded GPU has enoght power to run the FSO graphics engine. Second, its Linux, and people have had some success in compiling C/C++ projects on it.
So its not imposible like trying to port the game to Java...

As for input discussions, this is not the time to discuss that.

Anyway, i think the first step will be trying to compile the bins for Linux ARM, maybe a Ubuntu running in parallel with Android on the tablet.

No, you do not seem to be understanding what we are saying to you. Those previous discussions covered many of the same things, you seem to be focused exclusively on the apparent ability of the hardware and/or OS to run unmanaged C/C++ code, that is just one of many issues related to porting.

I will give you the different language bit, though if was the only problem it wouldn't be a deal breaker (though it will still be more than 4000 hours of work (that is, two years full time for one person)).

The iPhone uses OpenGL ES, in fact there is very little that uses 3D accelerated graphics but doesn't support OpenGL at all.  With some quick googling the only platform that I can find that doesn't support OpenGL at all is the XBox (which really doesn't come a much of a surprise considering they are DirectX boxes ); the PS3 supports ES, some of the Windows Mobile Phones actually use ES to implement the DirectX API, the Wii supports ES, so do the the DS and PSP. 

OpenGL is never the problem with these ports.  Having to rewrite everything to use the ES dialect of OpenGL is the first problem (which if I am remembering my OpenGL feature sheets correctly means you need to lose the shaders for one, which is basically the source of all of the "modern" graphical features of the engine).  Next would be finding a GPU with enough grunt to render and enough bandwidth to push through the amount of data that we throw at the GPU is a different story.  Third would be finding something that has storage that is fast enough to stream the data that we do. Fourth would be finding a CPU that could handle a mission full of physics/collision calcs.  Also, finding enough RAM to run the game could be a bit of challenge as well.

Yes, Tegra can do some pretty nice things, but that is when you compare them to other embedded graphics cards.  Even the lowly Intel GMA's are able to soundly trounce a Tegra 3.

This is the perfect time to discuss input because there is no point in porting anything to another platform if you can't use it.  Remember the discussions about how to port FSO to a game console?  Or even the, how do you map the 30+ controls of FSO onto a game console's controller?  In this case you are likely going to a device that has no buttons just a touch screen, which means you have what? 1 (maybe 2 or 3 if you have an expensive multi-touch capable device) simultaneous "button" press (which btw would have be on a "keyboard" that covers half or more of the screen).

You would be much further ahead to do something that is Freespace themed like Polpolion's BASIC "port" or Nuke's top down mod for FSO.  If you built/ported the engine that you use for Freespace correctly you could get the other TCs to help and/or do their own version.

Compiling for ARM will probably be least of your problems because the last confirmation that I heard that FSO still compiles and runs on PPC was about a year ago, which covers the endian issues.  FSO also compiles for 64-bit on SCP_UNIX systems already which has also helped find quite a few CPU related portability issues.

Don't forget the tired old maxim of the computing world: high performance, low price, low power consumption; pick two.

Keep in mind this is the 40 minute high level overview (ie. I spent 35 minutes too much to explain this).  This is not an exhaustive list because I don't know everything about how the engine works on all platforms.


Now don't get me wrong, I would love to see FSO on more platforms, but just porting the engine as is... it will be incredibly disappointing.

Its great that you have an plan of action now (even if it is only one step long). Please keep us posted on your progress.