[Lorric]

I'm not sure if this is posted in the right place, but anyway...

I was doing just fine on the keyboard, but I've gone and overdone it and damaged my hand I think. That is a consequence of being starved of my favourite game genre for many years and then suddenly having tons and tons of campaigns to play. So frustrating...

Anyway, I know nothing about joysticks. I just need one I can play Freespace 2 with and comfortably fly my fighter and operate the secondary stuff with the keyboard. Can anyone help? I'd obviously need it to be able to stick to my desk.

Any advice on the hand too would be welcome. It hurts and feels like it's burning if I try to play. It's been like that for 3 days.

[Enioch]

Sorry, don't know about joysticks. But I recommend you have your hand checked by a doctor, because carpal tunnel syndrome is a *****.

That said, could be something way less nasty, like a sprain, but the sooner you find out what it is, the sooner you'll find out if it has to be treated and the less damage you'll do to yourself without knowing.

And I suppose that, about the joysticks, you'll find more help here if you tell us what kind of a price range you're after.

[Lorric]

Sorry, don't know about joysticks. But I recommend you have your hand checked by a doctor, because carpal tunnel syndrome is a *****.

That said, could be something way less nasty, like a sprain, but the sooner you find out what it is, the sooner you'll find out if it has to be treated and the less damage you'll do to yourself without knowing.

And I suppose that, about the joysticks, you'll find more help here if you tell us what kind of a price range you're after.

I had a quick look at the symptoms and I really don't think I'll have that. I don't get any numbness. I can perform non-keyboard tasks quite well. It's mainly on the right side of the hand. It's nothing more than a minor annoyance if I'm not playing.

Price, I have no idea how much they cost either. It is my favourite genre I'll be buying it to play though, so I'd think I wouldn't have trouble shelling out about as much as for a new Playstation 3 game.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

Sorry, don't know about joysticks. But I recommend you have your hand checked by a doctor, because carpal tunnel syndrome is a *****.

That said, could be something way less nasty, like a sprain, but the sooner you find out what it is, the sooner you'll find out if it has to be treated and the less damage you'll do to yourself without knowing.

And I suppose that, about the joysticks, you'll find more help here if you tell us what kind of a price range you're after.

I had a quick look at the symptoms and I really don't think I'll have that. I don't get any numbness. I can perform non-keyboard tasks quite well. It's mainly on the right side of the hand. It's nothing more than a minor annoyance if I'm not playing.

I had a similar feeling a couple times... Switching from mouse to touchpad ( if laptop) for a while (or vice versa) usually helps - besides not touching the computer for a while, obviously

Price, I have no idea how much they cost either. It is my favourite genre I'll be buying it to play though, so I'd think I wouldn't have trouble shelling out about as much as for a new Playstation 3 game.

You can get a cheap one for 20$, a decent one for ~50$, while full-blown HOTAS arrangements can top 200$.

[Lorric]

I had a similar feeling a couple times... Switching from mouse to touchpad ( if laptop) for a while (or vice versa) usually helps - besides not touching the computer for a while, obviously

I was actually using the arrows on the keyboard. I couldn't deal with the mouse. And it's not a laptop.

You can get a cheap one for 20$, a decent one for ~50$, while full-blown HOTAS arrangements can top 200$.

I certainly wouldn't want to pay $200. I'm in England btw, I'm not sure what the exchange rate is, but I'm sure I could handle somewhere between $50 and $100 tops. I think if I was able to shoot and change weapons on the joystick I might be fine. Any joystick players have any advice on how they play and what their joystick lets them do?

[LordMelvin]

I picked up my Logitech Extreme 3d joystick for about 30$ (I'd put a link, but Newegg's out of stock...) and I get perfectly passable vehicle performance out of it - way better than with just a keyboard, certainly, though my desk is a little cramped for the addition. Four control axes (pitch, roll, and yaw on the stick, plus a throttle on the base) are about all I can deal with at any one time, and it's got plenty of buttons, though the half-dozen on the base could stand to be more distinct from each other - I've occasionally hit the wrong shield control by mistake and... Well it's a good thing you can restart missions when you hit 'all shields forward' instead of 'all shields rear'. I should probably remap that.

Other people will doubtless have advice for more advanced/complicated/HOTAS setups. I'll just say this: if possible, find a physical store that carries the controller you want, go there, and get the salesperson to let you take it out of the box to make sure it fits your hand well. This is especially important if you're dealing with an RSI, on which topic I'll second the 'consider seeking medical attention' advice Enioch gave..

I certainly wouldn't want to pay $200. I'm in England btw, I'm not sure what the exchange rate is, but I'm sure I could handle somewhere between $50 and $100 tops.

The exchange rate (UK-to-US) is 3-to-2, so thirty dollars should work out to about twenty pounds. In theory.

I think if I was able to shoot and change weapons on the joystick I might be fine. Any joystick players have any advice on how they play and what their joystick lets them do?

Every control I use regularly in combat is mapped somewhere on the joystick. Three axes of motion on the stick for roll, pitch, and yaw. A throttle on the base for speed. Trigger for guns, thumb-toggle for missiles, hat-switch for looking around, targeting controls, afterburner, and countermeasures on the four extra top buttons, shields and suchlike on the base next to the throttle.

The only things missing are Comms, power controls (e/g/s), and secondary bank selector, which I think I'll map to the spare button I've got on the base...

[Lorric]

I picked up my Logitech Extreme 3d joystick for about 30$ (I'd put a link, but Newegg's out of stock...) and I get perfectly passable vehicle performance out of it - way better than with just a keyboard, certainly, though my desk is a little cramped for the addition. Four control axes (pitch, roll, and yaw on the stick, plus a throttle on the base) are about all I can deal with at any one time, and it's got plenty of buttons, though the half-dozen on the base could stand to be more distinct from each other - I've occasionally hit the wrong shield control by mistake and... Well it's a good thing you can restart missions when you hit 'all shields forward' instead of 'all shields rear'. I should probably remap that.

Other people will doubtless have advice for more advanced/complicated/HOTAS setups. I'll just say this: if possible, find a physical store that carries the controller you want, go there, and get the salesperson to let you take it out of the box to make sure it fits your hand well. This is especially important if you're dealing with an RSI, on which topic I'll second the 'consider seeking medical attention' advice Enioch gave..

This thing?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Logitech-942-000005-Extreme-Pro-Joystick/dp/B002BYONB0/ref=dp_ob_title_vg

This is where it starts getting intimidating you see. I have of course tried to look at them myself, but they just look so different to the plain ole 1 button joysticks I was used to as a kid on my commodore 64

The star ratings are certainly positive.

So, why is it such a strange shape? And what do the following mean:

eight-way rubberized hat switch, twist handle, and rapid-fire trigger.

I'm guessing the last one means a turbo function is available? Not that you need one for Freespace 2, you just press the button down. Would you twist the handle to make yourself roll or something?

I know for gripping a joypad I'm okay. Dusted off Colony Wars yesterday. No problems. I guess it's because my thumb and first two fingers are used to pushing buttons, but the last two are used to just chilling, and now had to be put to work

I will be seeing a doctor in the not too distant furure about something unrelated, so I will be able to ask about the hand if it remains a problem. Currently it's got no worse, but no better either.

Oh I already tried the physical store. We used to have several stores, but since the crunch, all but one have gone out of business. And they said they haven't seen a PC joystick in years.

[Lorric]

Oh, I just remembered something, on the hand your last two fingers, unlike the others are covered by just one bone, which splits out for your last two fingers. That's definately where most of the pain is. Around where the bone splits, and moreso to the sides.

[LordMelvin]

That's the one. It's great for the price, (at least in the states, though it looks like you guys got boned on the import costs) and fits well into my hand.

The joystick has three degrees of motion: <---> for yaw,  ^/v for pitch and twist [I don't have an easy letter to press for rotatey arrows] for roll (or for rotate cockpit when I play Mechwarrior). It's very intuitive, as far as that goes.

The strange shape fits REALLY well into my right hand, hopefully yours as well, though as I said, if you can get your hand on it in the shop first...

The hat-switch is a little nub on top in between those four buttons that is used (in default settings) to quickly toggle over to look out the side or rear of your cockpit. As with everything, it's remappable. It's basically like having extra arrow keys that you can hit with your thumb.

Rapid-fire trigger... well, it basically doesn't mean anything. If you want a turbo firemode, you'd have to put something together in software, and there's software out there to do that with.

Also: DO NOT TRUST THE INTERNET FOR MEDICAL ADVICE.
(Yes, I realize that's medical advice on the internet.)

[deathfun]

Personally, I'd say go with a Logitech Attack 3. It's cheap, has plenty of buttons, and I'd say is pretty good for the price I payed
It's also not all that clunky in my opinion

As for whatever issues you have with your hand, I have no bloody clue

[Lorric]

That's the one. It's great for the price, (at least in the states, though it looks like you guys got boned on the import costs) and fits well into my hand.

The joystick has three degrees of motion: <---> for yaw,  ^/v for pitch and twist [I don't have an easy letter to press for rotatey arrows] for roll (or for rotate cockpit when I play Mechwarrior). It's very intuitive, as far as that goes.

The strange shape fits REALLY well into my right hand, hopefully yours as well, though as I said, if you can get your hand on it in the shop first...

The hat-switch is a little nub on top in between those four buttons that is used (in default settings) to quickly toggle over to look out the side or rear of your cockpit. As with everything, it's remappable. It's basically like having extra arrow keys that you can hit with your thumb.

Rapid-fire trigger... well, it basically doesn't mean anything. If you want a turbo firemode, you'd have to put something together in software, and there's software out there to do that with.

Also: DO NOT TRUST THE INTERNET FOR MEDICAL ADVICE.
(Yes, I realize that's medical advice on the internet.)

Go on then, LordMelvin. I'll give this a try. You, and those positive reviews there that I've been reading have convinced me. Thank you for your help.

Oh yes, I get jealous whenever I look at US prices vs UK prices on anything to do with computers. US prices are pretty often close to the same in dollars vs £s. I'm sure you know £s are worth a lot more than dollars, so you see things costing like £32.99 and US gets them for $39.99.

Yes, I would certainly consult a real doctor rather than the internet for medical advice. But it seems far enough off fo rme not to worry. If it starts getting worse without me making it worse by playing, I wil want to go and see one. I hope it will wear off on it's own though eventually once the source of the problem is eliminated.

(Awakenings Campaign, mission 2 was the cause btw. Long mission, 3rd attempt. Probably the longest continous play I've had since getting the game. Normally play time would be broken up by mission briefings and loading out ships, giving my hand a rest.)

[Lorric]

Personally, I'd say go with a Logitech Attack 3. It's cheap, has plenty of buttons, and I'd say is pretty good for the price I payed
It's also not all that clunky in my opinion

As for whatever issues you have with your hand, I have no bloody clue

I checked that out but they were only selling used ones on the site. I'd prefer a new one. Thanks anyway.

[KyadCK]

If you can find a Saitek x52 in your price range, jump on it.

That being said, I also have a Extreme 3D Pro. It's a good stick, and you can fit almost everything you need on the stick/base. I have all weapon and targeting controls on the stick (right hand only) and the few left over I need is easily within range on the base while still using the thumb throttle. I personaly use the hat as an extra 4 controls instead of 'look around', but thats preference of the user. Its 'capable' of 8 directions, but in practice you can only really get 4 out of it. Twist handle is your 3rd dimension, Roll, which can help you turn faster and control your ships profile. Rapid fire trigger... Its sensitive alright, it takes less motion to pull it all the way then other triggers. But in FS where you just hold it down it is kinda useless.

As LordMelvin said, the grip is just perfect. The only thing you should have to move around is your thumb, and button 2 (the one kinda on the side) is just in a good spot for resting position, and the hat/top keys should be well within your thumbs range of motion. The outside 3 fingers should never have to move. Twist, turn, doesnt matter, its a comfortable grip and they should stay in one spot the whole time.

The 3D Pro is the best cheap-end joystick. There are many better then it (for much more money), but dont go cheaper just to save a buck, you'll regret it later.

Personally, I'd say go with a Logitech Attack 3. It's cheap, has plenty of buttons, and I'd say is pretty good for the price I payed
It's also not all that clunky in my opinion

As for whatever issues you have with your hand, I have no bloody clue

Burn for that comment! The Attack 3 is a horrible horrible joystick. (I should know, I've got 2) No roll, no hat, 'righty/lefty' handle and base with an uncomfortable grip. Worth a lot less then just $10 under the 3D Pro.

[Lorric]

If you can find a Saitek x52 in your price range, jump on it.

That being said, I also have a Extreme 3D Pro. It's a good stick, and you can fit almost everything you need on the stick/base. I have all weapon and targeting controls on the stick (right hand only) and the few left over I need is easily within range on the base while still using the thumb throttle. I personaly use the hat as an extra 4 controls instead of 'look around', but thats preference of the user. Its 'capable' of 8 directions, but in practice you can only really get 4 out of it. Twist handle is your 3rd dimension, Roll, which can help you turn faster and control your ships profile. Rapid fire trigger... Its sensitive alright, it takes less motion to pull it all the way then other triggers. But in FS where you just hold it down it is kinda useless.

As LordMelvin said, the grip is just perfect. The only thing you should have to move around is your thumb, and button 2 (the one kinda on the side) is just in a good spot for resting position, and the hat/top keys should be well within your thumbs range of motion. The outside 3 fingers should never have to move. Twist, turn, doesnt matter, its a comfortable grip and they should stay in one spot the whole time.

The 3D Pro is the best cheap-end joystick. There are many better then it (for much more money), but dont go cheaper just to save a buck, you'll regret it later.

Thanks for the advice. It's always good to have options. The joystick has been ordered now, but if it fails for whatever reason, alternatives are good to know. It sounds good. I too would not want to squander those buttons on looking around. This is a battlefield, not a leisurely flight sim!

That Saitek X52 is an expensive thing. If it were the only joystick on Earth, I'd buy it in order to continue playing, but otherwise, no, at current prices. However, in the interest of gaining knowledge on the subject of joysticks, would you be able to tell me what's so special about it?

[jg18]

Some thoughts if you haven't already gotten the 3D Pro:

(1) Can you buy something from amazon.com (thereby taking advantage of the weak U.S. dollar ) and have it shipped to the UK? Might be cheaper then getting something from amazon.co.uk, with the exception of the Extreme 3D Pro, which currently is out-of-stock at amazon.com.

(2) You might want to consider the CH Products joysticks, which are more expensive than the 3D Pro (although within your stated price range if you get one from amazon.com) but have an excellent reputation for build quality and customer service. There's a comparison of the three different sticks here, and reviews on Amazon and elsewhere.

I use the Flightstick Pro (the Combatstick and Fighterstick are too big for my hands) either with the keyboard or with the Pro Throttle.

There's also a comparison of the Saitek x52 and the Fighterstick/Pro Throttle HOTAS here (which is still useful information if you're just considering getting a stick without a throttle), and there are reviews on the individual sticks from the CH Products joysticks link above.

EDIT: if you've already gotten the 3D Pro, then never mind. As Kyad said, it's a very good cheap joystick, but it's still a cheap joystick, and generally, you get what you pay for. That said, a lot of people around here like the 3D Pro.

[Lorric]

Some thoughts if you haven't already gotten the 3D Pro:

(1) Can you buy something from amazon.com (thereby taking advantage of the weak U.S. dollar ) and have it shipped to the UK? Might be cheaper then getting something from amazon.co.uk, with the exception of the Extreme 3D Pro, which currently is out-of-stock at amazon.com.

(2) You might want to consider the CH Products joysticks, which are more expensive than the 3D Pro (although within your stated price range if you get one from amazon.com) but have an excellent reputation for build quality and customer service. There's a comparison of the three different sticks here, and reviews on Amazon and elsewhere.

I use the Flightstick Pro (the Combatstick and Fighterstick are too big for my hands) either with the keyboard or with the Pro Throttle.

There's also a comparison of the Saitek x52 and the Fighterstick/Pro Throttle HOTAS here (which is still useful information if you're just considering getting a stick without a throttle), and there are reviews on the individual sticks from the CH Products joysticks link above.

EDIT: if you've already gotten the 3D Pro, then never mind. As Kyad said, it's a very good cheap joystick, but it's still a cheap joystick, and generally, you get what you pay for. That said, a lot of people around here like the 3D Pro.

I've already ordered the stick, but as I said above, it's good to have other options if this stick is no good to me for some reason. I have no idea if you can order stuff from abroad and ship over. I would have thought anyone willing to do overseas shipping would show up on Amazon UK, with a price in £s. I know I've seen things on there being shipped from other countries before, but I'm not sure if I've ever seen anything from the US, I've seen something from Germany I remember for some reason. With games in the past it's been moot due to regionalisation.

It's good to know that stick has it's proponents here. Since this is the game I'm buying it for.

I hadn't thought about sticks being too big for hands. It's hard to tell from pictures how big it will be.

Thanks for the advice, it may prove useful if I don't like this stick. Hopefully it won't come to that.

[KyadCK]

Thanks for the advice. It's always good to have options. The joystick has been ordered now, but if it fails for whatever reason, alternatives are good to know. It sounds good. I too would not want to squander those buttons on looking around. This is a battlefield, not a leisurely flight sim!

That Saitek X52 is an expensive thing. If it were the only joystick on Earth, I'd buy it in order to continue playing, but otherwise, no, at current prices. However, in the interest of gaining knowledge on the subject of joysticks, would you be able to tell me what's so special about it?

It's the "I want a really nice joystick, but I don't want to put out several hundred for it" joystick (fills the gap between the $30-50 joysticks and the $300 joysticks).

You might want to consider the CH Products joysticks, which are more expensive than the 3D Pro (although within your stated price range if you get one from amazon.com) but have an excellent reputation for build quality and customer service. There's a comparison of the three different sticks here, and reviews on Amazon and elsewhere.

I use the Flightstick Pro (the Combatstick and Fighterstick are too big for my hands) either with the keyboard or with the Pro Throttle.

Ya, I've got the Pro Throttle, CH makes really good stuff, and they last forever. I've got an old tan and black 2-button CH FlightStick from back in the day of gameport and manual calibration, as far as I know it still works    Such a shame they cost so much, or I would get one, combine it with the throttle via their software and have HOTAS for FSO.

[Lorric]

It's the "I want a really nice joystick, but I don't want to put out several hundred for it" joystick (fills the gap between the $30-50 joysticks and the $300 joysticks).

What's the attraction of the super expensive joysticks? It's a new concept to me the idea of such expensive gameplay tools. Would they be designed to simulate the controls of a real aircraft or something like that?

[Lorric]

You know, I said such expensive gaming tools was a new concept for me. Well, maybe not quite...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEP_Pimmgbg

Ah, that would have been a dream come true for me when I was growing up...

[jg18]

I have no idea if you can order stuff from abroad and ship over.

Amazon.com gladly accepts orders from all around the globe.

Shipping rates/times to Europe here.

I would have thought anyone willing to do overseas shipping would show up on Amazon UK, with a price in £s.

Nope, I don't think it works that way in general. You have to go to the original seller's website and see where they're willing to ship and how much it'll cost for them to ship it there.

I hadn't thought about sticks being too big for hands. It's hard to tell from pictures how big it will be.

That's part of what reviews are for (and that's how I found out).

It's the "I want a really nice joystick, but I don't want to put out several hundred for it" joystick (fills the gap between the $30-50 joysticks and the $300 joysticks).

$300? What stick costs that much? The CH sticks are generally somewhere between $60 and $100 depending on which stick and which day (seriously, prices can fluctuate from day to day on Amazon, dunno why), and things like the Thrustmaster Cougar (exact F-16 replica) with all the mods or something equivalent can go for near $1,000, but I don't know of anything in between.

What's the attraction of the super expensive joysticks? It's a new concept to me the idea of such expensive gameplay tools. Would they be designed to simulate the controls of a real aircraft or something like that?

Some very expensive ones, like the ultra-high-end Thrustmaster sticks, are intended to be exact replicas, although those ones in particular are known for having shoddy parts and requiring lots of expensive modding.

The CH sticks last for years, even over a decade, and still work perfectly. The reviews I mentioned before will tell you more. Here's an example from the x52/CH HOTAS review I mentioned:

When I installed the CH FighterStick Pro, I just FLEW. There are no dead spots, no sensitive areas, no flakey hat switches. It just works and it does so correctly from the start.