[Ghostavo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLgNZ9aTEwc

[jg18]

His 'reasoning' was rationalization - this kid was depressed and needed help. It's tragic he didn't get it.

It's easy to say someone doesn't get it while looking from outside in.
Meanwhile, I look from the inside out, and I get it

No, you're just spouting nonsense.

Interesting, because I read it in the context of this post from a while back (quoted below for convenience) and deathfun's reply further down that thread. Thus I didn't see it as quite so nonsensical, even if still far from an ideal post.

*snip*

I joke about suicide all the time, what does that make me?

Suicide is a tragic act, but it's not one with a large culture of permissivity...though it, too is definitely socially contagious, and if you joke about it all the time: are you okay? You've made remarks about feeling socially isolated and alone.

[deathfun]

Yes, it is. deathfun has shown himself to be nothing but a common troll on issues that do not involve the merits of various kinds of booze, as such I do not see why I shouldn't call him out for his nonsense. If you look closely at his post, it does not say anything of significance, and bears no relationship with the post snippet it supposedly is responding to. He does not elaborate any point he might have, and tries to cover it up with cutesy phrasing.

Thus, I have to conclude that he is spouting nonsense.

Then perhaps I should mention that about a year ago, I did exactly what this kid did. I didn't have a shotgun, but enough rum to kill myself twice over
Unfortunately, half a bottle later wasn't enough to kill me, so here I am

It isn't a cutesy phrasing. It's experience
I've been in the exact same mind set, so I'm within his box of thinking. General isn't, he's outside of it looking in with a condescending attitude. Perhaps he thought of seeking help, but realized that all he'll get is "Get over yourself" or "here's some prozac"

Know where I get that from? Shrink number one wanted to give me meds. Person number two told me I was being melodramatic.
Person three understood where I was coming from, and she's the only one who's been helping

That's the thing isn't it. You cannot seek help from anyone who isn't in the same mindset as you, in the same box. They can't help you because they don't understand **** about what's going on inside your head

This thread is exactly where I belong, so is that ****ing better?

[The E]

See, my personal experience (which includes bouts of near-suicidal depression) runs counter to that. In all instances, the help I've received from people "outside" was crucial in not actually going through with it, and getting over it. I also know (again, from personal experience) that someone who is determined to commit suicide will not be stopped, by anyone. I agree with Battuta that whatever this kid was going through, it was avoidable if it had been picked up by the people around him and if they stepped in to help.

[Legate Damar]

Sounds like a Vulcan to me

[Dragon]

That's why I don't hold psychology in high regard. How can you make a science out of something that is completely different for every person? You're both speaking from experience, and I think you're both both right and wrong at the same time. Each person requires an individual approach, what helps one person might push another over the edge. Whatever works for you isn't guaranteed to work on other people. Somebody who wants to help a depressed person should "feel" how to do it, not rely on any stiff rules. Emotions are often illogical and a logical approach to an emotional person doesn't work too often.

This boy actually seems like an exemplary stoic. He's done the math, came to a conclusion and did what the logic dictated. At least, that's what he said, and most likely what he thought. This might have been driven by emotions afterall, but we'll never know.

[The E]

Have you ever talked to a psychiatrist, Dragon? Have you ever required professional psychological help? Because it sure sounds like you don't.

[Dragon]

Have you ever talked to a psychiatrist, Dragon? Have you ever required professional psychological help? Because it sure sounds like you don't.

Well, I actually did (though admittedly, those weren't long conversations). Through the entire conversation, I could clearly see this person was "trained" to talk to people. She didn't change anything.
Considering everything, I most likely require professional help by some standards. I don't intend on getting it, since I'm comfortable with myself and not a threat to other people. That, and I'm rich enough to be eccentric instead of crazy.

[The E]

In other words, you were unable to look past your preconceptions of what a psychiatrist is and does and were thus unable to actually talk with that person.

Now, granted, personal chemistry is immensely important in these issues; if the person you are talking to is unable to find the right approach with you, then there's little chance of making progress. However, I submit to you that that is a failure on the part of the practitioner, not of the science behind it.

[Dragon]

Maybe I have yet to meet a good psychiatrist. Considering the backwater I live in, this is a likely explanation. Maybe someday I'll meat one who'll prove me wrong, and it will undoubtedly be an interesting experience.

[deathfun]

See, my personal experience (which includes bouts of near-suicidal depression) runs counter to that. In all instances, the help I've received from people "outside" was crucial in not actually going through with it, and getting over it. I also know (again, from personal experience) that someone who is determined to commit suicide will not be stopped, by anyone. I agree with Battuta that whatever this kid was going through, it was avoidable if it had been picked up by the people around him and if they stepped in to help.

Personal experience
That's the key isn't it

It isn't his experience. We aren't in his mind, we are only in ours
I don't agree that it was avoidable, but I don't agree that it was unavoidable either. I don't know enough of his life to make that call
What I can say, is that when you can make logic out of your death, there's not much that anyone can do to see you different.

The other thing being, is nobody noticed. He was sociable, smart, appeared to have no problem whatsoever. These are the same people who end up saying to themselves "Had I noticed something"
Noticed what? He was perfectly normal. A flawless facade

As for psychs, I've been to four. None of them helped, and I don't live in a backwater place

Edit: Just realized The E complimented me (somewhat) on my posts relating to alcohol

[Dragon]

As I mentioned, our personal experiences don't matter here, only his. Maybe it wasn't a facade and he really was that stoic. Though he might have failed to see benefits dealing with his problems could bring (for example, if he was bullied, then getting rid of the bullies would be a good and perfectly logical thing to do).

[General Battuta]

**** me, this is the worst thread on the entire forum. This is like a 2009 thread. Clots of armchair shrinks who don't know the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatry and think they have a special perspective on depression.

Depression is a tragic, treatable mental illness. The treatment is sometimes very simple - exercise, social contact, meaningful work - and sometimes nearly impossible. The human mind is incapable of purely rational thought, and this young person's decision to kill himself had nothing to do with 'rationality'. If he'd just lived a few years longer he probably* would've been fine.

If you are depressed, you must let yourself talk about it. It's an incredibly common condition and nothing to be ashamed of, but it is also not something you should tell yourself is normal or logical. Depression colors every thought and action you take in ways that will seem impossible once you're out of the soup. Depression induces learned helplessness - a mental morass that traps you in the same self-destructive behaviors.

Psychiatrists and drugs don't need to be your first step. Talk to your friends and family. Encourage them to check in on you constantly and to work with you to kick you out of bad habits. Go to the gym with a partner, on a routine schedule. Find ways to pare down chronic stress - if you're a student, or in economic trouble, this is unfortunately going to be a big contributing factor.

If you have a friend who was mentioned suicidal thoughts and suddenly cheers up, keep an eye on him or her. This can be a sign that they've worked out a suicide plan and have committed to it.

Again: most of the people on this forum have probably grappled with depression. I have, I know The_E has, I don't read deathfun posts but I guarantee he probably has. It is not a permanent curse.

This boy actually seems like an exemplary stoic. He's done the math, came to a conclusion and did what the logic dictated. At least, that's what he said, and most likely what he thought. This might have been driven by emotions afterall, but we'll never know.

This boy killed himself for the same reason as any other young person. He just had better ways to articulate his reasoning. The decision to take your own life isn't predicated on your own personal logic engine, it's predicated on the material you feed into that engine.

[Nuke]

i kinda think true psychiatry is a dying artform. they use the perscription pad instead of psychoanalysis, which is a long, drawn out process requiring much care and effort from both psychiatrist and patient (and a fat paycheck to cover the bill). these days, especially if your poor, you only get to see an actual psychiatrist when they change your meds, they dont do any analysis at all. the rest of the time you see a psychologist, or a therapist, someone whos really just a trained talker, but without the educational background necessary to perform psychoanalysis proper.

[General Battuta]

Psychoanalysis is possibly crap that might just make things worse (there's some evidence that dwelling on problems just deepens depression), and psychiatry is currently struggling to move beyond 'i hit it with my SSRIs' as a clinical strategy. Treatment of depression has a lot of analogies to treatment of cancer - lots of unjustified triumphalism and a failure to recognize that the target disease is extremely complex and differs enormously from patient to patient.

[Dilmah G]

i kinda think true psychiatry is a dying artform. they use the perscription pad instead of psychoanalysis, which is a long, drawn out process requiring much care and effort from both psychiatrist and patient (and a fat paycheck to cover the bill). these days, especially if your poor, you only get to see an actual psychiatrist when they change your meds, they dont do any analysis at all. the rest of the time you see a psychologist, or a therapist, someone whos really just a trained talker, but without the educational background necessary to perform psychoanalysis proper.

This. My sister was prescribed meds at fourteen and was stuck in a 2 year rut as a result. This was after <6 months of seeing this particular psych too. Was compounded when her medication was changed over a few times and her understandable bad reaction to it. There's more to it than that, obviously, but the use of prescription pads a little too keenly ****s **** up big time.

Anyway, I too thought this was a tragic article when I stumbled upon it on FB. The premise of suicide being the rational option though is something I feel I can empathize with, at least to a very minute degree in light of some recent life-events. Needless to say, awareness of mental illness, its symptoms and how best to support people with it is something every society would benefit from. I've come across far too many guys who needlessly come across as sacks of ****e, asking questions synonymous with 'Why don't they just snap out of it?' and the like. 

[zookeeper]

Not enough information in the article to really judge it either way. I have no doubt that the vast majority of suicides are caused by problems that could be remedied rather than merely finding it the logical thing to do, but suicide isn't fundamentally very illogical either so I can't really dismiss it as a real possibility.

[General Battuta]

Suicide is not a matter of logic at all. Logic is a process, a tool. At some point you need to establish axioms and operate on data external to the system. You can't determine the value of life from first principles.

e: An 'intelligent boy' could conclude, logically, 'I am miserable, and I do not see any way to alleviate my misery, so it is better to die than to live in misery'. That's logical. But he's feeding in external data which is not determined by logic - 'I'm miserable', or 'entropy will devour everything', or 'the impermanence of all effort makes effort futile' - and his 'rational' systems are inevitably tainted by affective processes.

If you start from the right assumptions you can logically justify just about anything.

[Nuke]

Psychoanalysis is possibly crap that might just make things worse (there's some evidence that dwelling on problems just deepens depression), and psychiatry is currently struggling to move beyond 'i hit it with my SSRIs' as a clinical strategy. Treatment of depression has a lot of analogies to treatment of cancer - lots of unjustified triumphalism and a failure to recognize that the target disease is extremely complex and differs enormously from patient to patient.

thats because its supposed to be a long drawn out process. problems occur when you try to fast track it and take shortcuts (also you cant help someone who doesn't want to be helped, as the patient is part of the process). you need to establish a baseline personality assessment through observation, and use that baseline to test hypotheses about why the patient is not all there. that is the only way to approach the problem scientifically. if you give them pills you're not working the problem(s), only supplying another way to suppress it and the mental turmoil that surrounds it. granted so long as they stay on the pills they are fine, but if they should ever go off, for whatever reason, then you're right back to where you were. my mom has been on pills for most of her life to control her mood. though recently, she has come off of them for other health concerns (they were "destroying her liver"). now shes a total lunatic, breaking things and yelling off into space all the time. its not pretty.

[LHN91]

At risk of looking like a tool...

I'm no psychiatrist or psychologist, and I don't claim to be. However, I do have some basic ASIST (Applied Suicide Interventions Skills Training), and spent a couple of years in high school acting as a member of a group of students with the training, trying to help those of our peers planning to commit suicide to not do so, and to get them to local supports as much as possible.

Now I would be lying if I said that the procedures always worked, or that the local support was always what the person needed, or that I have more than a shallow working knowledge of the science. But I can say with conviction that no person can truly accurately weigh the pros and cons of living vs. dying for themselves, especially when one's state of mind is depressed or otherwise pointed towards suicide.

Much like what Battuta just mentioned, logic really isn't part of it. Logic, given the right assumptions, can justify suicide with almost no effort. I saw that fact over and over again with suicidal individuals I worked with.