Author Topic: stuxnet was obama  (Read 8104 times)

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Offline Nuke

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nuke power plants go critical all the time.  that's how they operate.

thats because so much scifi misuses the terminology so bad. "reactor critical were all gonna die abandon ship". i always found that derpy. rarely do they use the proper term meltdown.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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nuke power plants go critical all the time.  that's how they operate.

thats because so much scifi misuses the terminology so bad. "reactor critical were all gonna die abandon ship". i always found that derpy. rarely do they use the proper term meltdown.

Meltdown=

 :P

 

Offline Mikes

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Something like "Reactor criticality achieved Captain", would only leave 90% of viewers scratch their heads if it isn't followed by a huge explosion...

 

Offline Nuke

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nuke power plants go critical all the time.  that's how they operate.

thats because so much scifi misuses the terminology so bad. "reactor critical were all gonna die abandon ship". i always found that derpy. rarely do they use the proper term meltdown.

Meltdown=

 :P

thats more like outright vaporization.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline ssmit132

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Yes, but I'm sure many people have the misconception that nuclear meltdown = mushroom cloud.

 

Offline Nuke

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and that is why humans deserve to get nuked :D
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Offline Mongoose

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More people need to see The China Syndrome, apparently. :D

 

Offline Nuke

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aye
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Offline jr2

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I was under the impression that it's actually physically impossible to have a nuclear bomb type reaction in a power reactor.  The fuel isn't dense enough for a supercritical (hope I'm using the term right) reaction, where the reaction not only is self-sustaining, but also wildly accelerates, and is packed close enough that it doesn't just fly apart and slow down again.  Basically, dirty bomb vs. hiroshima.

 

Offline Nuke

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yea the material is not the same. stuff will run in a reactor that you cant make weapons out of. uranium-235 and plutonium-239 are your primary weapons grade isotopes. for uranium you need at least 90% purity, and plutonium you need 93% purity to be considered weapons grade. i think you can also use u233 if the u232 content is less than 50ppm (or 1ppm if gun type). reactors dont need such high enrichment, some can even run on natural uranium. though i know far less about reactors that weapons, obviously :D, so you need klaus for that.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 02:20:28 pm by Nuke »
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline Klaustrophobia

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I was under the impression that it's actually physically impossible to have a nuclear bomb type reaction in a power reactor.  The fuel isn't dense enough for a supercritical (hope I'm using the term right) reaction, where the reaction not only is self-sustaining, but also wildly accelerates, and is packed close enough that it doesn't just fly apart and slow down again.  Basically, dirty bomb vs. hiroshima.

supercritical just means power is rising.  reactors do this routinely to start up and get to power.  the term you never want to hear is PROMPT critical.  "delayed" neutron lifetime is on the order of seconds.  this is where reactors operate so we can control them.  prompt neutron lifetime is 10^-14 seconds.  this is what bombs do.  reactors CAN do this, but it won't result in a nuclear explosion like a bomb.  and if your core wasn't designed by the russians, it may not even damage the core.  our research reactor at NC State used to do this on purpose. 
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Offline Nuke

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russians were always good at designing stuff that was really effective at killing their own people.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Meltdown=



More people need to see The China Syndrome, apparently. :D

The China Syndrome, as portrayed in fiction, isn't really a thing either.  See above photo.  The fuel in Chernobyl #4 did melt through the bottom of the reactor core, but it couldn't get through the floor of the structure.

Supposing it could get through the floor, though, the fuel rods would hit the water table, where the water would flash to steam, sending the fuel rocketing skyward into/through the reactor's containment dome.  Stuff a turkey with a couple of onions and drop it in a deep fryer at some point to get an idea of how this would work.  In the absence of a containment dome (such as with Chernobyl), the fuel would disperse, as sent skyward, creating a much greater fallout hazard than simply exposing the fuel to atmosphere.  This would start and be worst nearest the melted-down reactor, though, not the opposite side of the planet.

Removing the water table from the equation, the spent fuel still doesn't get to the other side of the planet.  As the fuel travels through the planet, to the core, it will experience dissipative forces of friction and viscosity.  In other words, the act of travelling through the Earth's crust, mantle, and core results in a significant portion of the reactor fuel's gravitational potential energy being converted into (more) heat, instead of kinetic energy.  Because the kinetic energy of the fuel doesn't equal its original gravitational potential energy, once it reaches the center of the Earth (assuming that the dissipative forces aren't adequate to counter gravity, which is another leap that we're making for the sake of argument), it will be unable to continue anywhere near as far in the other direction, before gravity reverses its direction to return the fuel to Earth's center again.

Okay, now let's suppose that you built a tunnel, all the way from your melt-down location to the other side of the planet and that you have the means to keep atmospheric gasses from entering that tunnel.  No dissipative forces, right?  Wrong!  You're now operating under the assumption that the mass distribution of Earth is uniform.  Guess what....  Earth isn't a uniformly distributed spherical mass.  Some parts are denser than others, and those variations in density are not symetrical (and almost certainly not about the axis defined by your magic tunnel).  That means that, at various points during the fuel's transit through the tunnel, it's going to get pulled into the tunnel wall, experience friction, lose energy, and therefore still won't make it to the other side of the planet.

So, in order for The China Syndrome to be, in any way, relevant, you have to prep the reactor site as follows:

1)  Build the site with a floor that the melted reactor fuel can actually melt through.  (Meaning that, not only will the reactor fuel melt the floor, but the fuel cannot be bouyant, in the liquid that the floor becomes.)
2)  Pump out all of the water from local aquifers, and seal them off, so that they cannot be replenished.
3)  Build a magic tunnel that can maintain a perfect vaccuum, while open to the atmosphere, and traverses a diameter of the planet.
4)  Rebuild the entire planet, upon which the reactor is built, such that it will be uniformly dense, or symetrically dense, about the axis defined by your magic tunnel.

Or, when informing yourself about possible dangers of nuclear energy, don't turn to fiction.

Incidentally, Mongoose, I know you probably weren't bring that up seriously, but others have.  Specifically, it's come up as a counterpoint to how safe modern reactors with proper containment domes are.  As a result, I bang out this kind of post almost as a reflex.

 

Offline Scotty

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our research reactor at NC State used to do this on purpose. 

So can the one at K-State.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Incidentally, Mongoose, I know you probably weren't bring that up seriously, but others have.  Specifically, it's come up as a counterpoint to how safe modern reactors with proper containment domes are.  As a result, I bang out this kind of post almost as a reflex.
From what I remember of the movie (which is a damn good one), that phrase is mainly used as a buzzword, and the actual scenario presented in it is far more realistic.  But yes, your reflex holds true, and these issues don't exist in modern reactor designs.

 

Offline SypheDMar

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Yes, but I'm sure many people have the misconception that nuclear meltdown = mushroom cloud.
Blame Red Alert 2. :nervous:

 

Offline Nuke

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Incidentally, Mongoose, I know you probably weren't bring that up seriously, but others have.  Specifically, it's come up as a counterpoint to how safe modern reactors with proper containment domes are.  As a result, I bang out this kind of post almost as a reflex.
From what I remember of the movie (which is a damn good one), that phrase is mainly used as a buzzword, and the actual scenario presented in it is far more realistic.  But yes, your reflex holds true, and these issues don't exist in modern reactor designs.

i read an interesting article that the size of the containment dome is calculated based on the amount of water in the reactor, if you were to flash convert it into steam, the size of the containment dome would contain that steam, so as to prevent an explosion.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline Klaustrophobia

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well, yes and no.  it might be sized for the initial reactor vessel volume of water, but if you're flashing that to steam, you're also sure as **** pumping a **** ton of water in to replace it.  if the sumps can't keep up, eventually you have to unload some of it to atmosphere.  of course we've yet to have a loop fall off or blow the head off of the reactor vessel, so i wouldn't worry about it.
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Offline Ghostavo

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"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...