[Apollo]

WARNING: for the sake of convenience I won't use any spoiler tags, since I'll mainly be discussing spoilered topics and it would be a pain to cover up them all.

Let me begin by saying that I have no intention of  being a dick and ****ing up an entire thread again. I only started this thread because Battuta said he'd be willing to debate this with me, and I didn't want to ruin the thread I was already on. A

Also, I am in no way criticizing Blueplanet. I always thought the stuff I'm discussing added a layer of mystery to it, and helped distinguished it from most other FS campaigns.

Now, I've always considered some of Blueplanet's narrative elements--for example, psychic communication--to be supernatural. Most sci-fi has some unexplainable or implausible elements, and it frequently ignores some laws of physics for the sake of coolness. For example, FreeSpace has explosions and sound in space, lasers that are visible and don't move anywhere near the speed of light, and subspace, a storyline device that has little or no basis in reality.

However, Blueplanet takes implausibility considerably farther than regular FreeSpace. The presence of psychic powers is a great example, being a superficially scientific stand-in for magic. I say superficially, because no matter how scientific you try to make it sound, psychic abilites are essentially a form of magic.

Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology.

This is a quote from (If I remember correctly) Larry Niven. I think it fits all the supernatural elements in Blueplanet fairly well--except for one. Samuel Bei's recovery from death is explained in essentially spiritual terms, without any attempt at all to make it seem scientific. This is the most blatantly fantastic element in Blueplanet, but certainly not the only one.

I am aware that the BP team has far more information than me, so I'll just make a list of questions I have. One of them probably come down to personal philosopy, although the the other two could potentially have a scientific explanation.

• How are psychic powers not supernatural?
• How is Samuel Bei's recovery from death not supernatural?
• How can Vishnu exist outside of time and be essentially all-knowing? How is he distinct from a physical god?

[crizza]

Dude, Sams body was dumped in his suit before the vishnan ship jumped towards Sol, so he wasn't dead at all.

[General Battuta]

1. There are no psychic powers in Blue Planet. There is no magic. The Nagari process operates through the same nonlocal processes as the Kayser and ETAK, through mechanisms connected to topologically dense physics in subspace. GTVI theorizes the exact transmission mechanism involves manipulation of action potentials in individual neurons, triggering sodium-potassium pumps through electromagnetic interaction along the cell membrane. This implies extensive computational modeling of the human brain on the part of the transmitter and a fearsome nonlocal sensor capability. (I could get further into exactly how Nagari works, but it would run into serious spoilers up through BP3.)

2. Why would Samuel Bei's survival require supernatural intervention?

3. Is 'Vishnu' a thing? Is it a 'he'? Do you know anything about general relativity and Minkowskian spacetime? The nature of the Vishnan Psyche has to be understood in the light of Minkowskian spacetime and the nature of subspace. There's nothing magical there: merely cosmological, speculative.

4. You've talked about 'energy beings'. Is an AI an energy being? It exists as patterns of information stored on a substrate. Is your mind an 'energy being'? It exists as electrical activity on a coded chemical substrate. What substrate do the Vishnans exist on? Where is the information of their existence encoded? These questions are explicitly answered for you. You should ditch the silly Star Trek notion of an 'energy being' and instead consider the nature of computation and information in physics.

You talk about implausibility going 'considerably father' than regular FreeSpace. Yet regular FreeSpace is already completely implausible on a moment by moment basis. Every subspace jump makes a hash of physics and causality as we understand it. Moreover, Nagari is simply based on a literal reading of material already in FreeSpace - the Hammer of Light, Lieutenant Ash's dialogue.

You're labeling stuff 'magic' because you haven't investigated the mechanisms, but it's no more magical than subspace. It would be easy to label a television magic without understanding a bit about the forces at play. You could have learned this from all the techroom material on the Vasudans, who believe there is nothing supernatural; all that occurs is by definition natural.

There are no psychic powers, no magic, and no supernatural elements in Blue Planet. There is a great deal of soft SF.

[Apollo]

Well, this was probably inevitable. I really need to start reading them tech descriptions.

1. From Techroom:

The inescapable conclusion of Project Nagari was that elements of the Terran and Vasudan populations were capable of decidedly non-mystical communication with alien species via the detection of modulated quantum pulses. What was not clear was whether the Shivans (and their lesser-known counterparts) were simply being eavesdropped upon, or whether they were intentionally reaching out.

You're right. Damn, I feel stupid right now.

2. It wouldn't necessarily. The command briefing implied that it did, but It could of been misleading.

3.

3. Is 'Vishnu' a thing? Is it a 'he'? Do you know anything about general relativity and Minkowskian spacetime? The nature of the Vishnan Psyche has to be understood in the light of Minkowskian spacetime and the nature of subspace. There's nothing magical there: merely cosmological, speculative.

All that goes too far over my head for me to say anything.

4.

4. You've talked about 'energy beings'. Is an AI an energy being? It exists as patterns of information stored on a substrate. Is your mind an 'energy being'? It exists as electrical activity on a coded chemical substrate. What substrate do the Vishnans exist on? Where is the information of their existence encoded? These questions are explicitly answered for you. You should ditch the silly Star Trek notion of an 'energy being' and instead consider the nature of computation and information in physics.

You talk about implausibility going 'considerably father' than regular FreeSpace. Yet regular FreeSpace is already completely implausible on a moment by moment basis. Every subspace jump makes a hash of physics and causality as we understand it. Moreover, Nagari is simply based on a literal reading of material already in FreeSpace - the Hammer of Light, Lieutenant Ash's dialogue.

You're labeling stuff 'magic' because you haven't investigated the mechanisms, but it's no more magical than subspace. It would be easy to label a television magic without understanding a bit about the forces at play. You could have learned this from all the techroom material on the Vasudans, who believe there is nothing supernatural; all that occurs is by definition natural.

There are no psychic powers, no magic, and no supernatural elements in Blue Planet. There is a great deal of soft SF.

OK, I see your point there.


Well, I have to concede that you were correct about all of that. I apologize if I annoyed anybody by making this thread.

[SypheDMar]

This is the beauty of Blue Planet 2. Everything about BP1 was conveniently explained once BP2 was released. Any dislike I originally had for BP1 was wiped clean with the Techroom entries.

battuta is awesome writer.

[Apollo]

I actually liked the whole "Vishnans are good Shivans are evil" narrative of BP1, but for storytelling purposes it was probably better to change that.

[MatthTheGeek]

One-dimensional entities are not necessarily bad, depending on what you want to achieve, but they do limit a great deal the narrative depth and scope of a story. BP would be bland and quickly boring if Vishnans were all-good and Shivans all-evil, much like if UEF was all-good and GTVA all-evil (or vice-versa !).

BP is grey. Full of grey. Grey everywhere ! ALL the grey. Gray ALL the things.

[Apollo]

One-dimensional entities are not necessarily bad, depending on what you want to achieve, but they do limit a great deal the narrative depth and scope of a story. BP would be bland and quickly boring if Vishnans were all-good and Shivans all-evil, much like if UEF was all-good and GTVA all-evil (or vice-versa !).

BP is grey. Full of grey. Grey everywhere ! ALL the grey. Gray ALL the things.

Yeah, having everyone be morally grey makes the story much more complex and interesting.

I still have difficulty imagining how the Shivans could ever be lighter than a very dark shade of grey, though. They've done so many bad things that it would be really hard to make them sympathetic, unless the Vishnans are somehow worse or there are some non-xenocidal Shivans.

[Phantom Hoover]

i know about general relativity and minkowskian spacetime, can you explain that in greater depth it sounds interesting

[Ryuseiken]

True. I wouldn't of felt so guilty when enemy pilots died screaming for help if I knew I was already designated to be on the side of angels.

[Ryuseiken]

One-dimensional entities are not necessarily bad, depending on what you want to achieve, but they do limit a great deal the narrative depth and scope of a story. BP would be bland and quickly boring if Vishnans were all-good and Shivans all-evil, much like if UEF was all-good and GTVA all-evil (or vice-versa !).

BP is grey. Full of grey. Grey everywhere ! ALL the grey. Gray ALL the things.

Yeah, having everyone be morally grey makes the story much more complex and interesting.

I still have difficulty imagining how the Shivans could ever be lighter than a very dark shade of grey, though. They've done so many bad things that it would be really hard to make them sympathetic, unless the Vishnans are somehow worse or there are some non-xenocidal Shivans.

I don't think the Shivans were intended to be portrayed as sympathetic. At BEST they are a horrific version of a well intentioned extremist based on what we can infer about their motives from their conversation with the Vishnans.

I think the grey in this case comes more from the question of just how much better the Vishnans are, since they were still willing 'partners' with the Shivans until recent events.

[SypheDMar]

One-dimensional entities are not necessarily bad, depending on what you want to achieve, but they do limit a great deal the narrative depth and scope of a story. BP would be bland and quickly boring if Vishnans were all-good and Shivans all-evil, much like if UEF was all-good and GTVA all-evil (or vice-versa !).

BP is grey. Full of grey. Grey everywhere ! ALL the grey. Gray ALL the things.

I still have difficulty imagining how the Shivans could ever be lighter than a very dark shade of grey, though. They've done so many bad things that it would be really hard to make them sympathetic, unless the Vishnans are somehow worse or there are some non-xenocidal Shivans.

Have they done really bad things? In canon, they've been described as "Preservers" and "nomads". In Silent Threat, the GTA/GTI were experimenting on living Shivans. In FreeSpace 2, the Terrans who have been invading "Shivan-space" first, not the other way around.

EDIT: Also, we don't know what the Vishnans really are. For all we know, they could have influenced Samuel Bei's perception of the "dialogue" that the two sides were having in BP1.

[Legate Damar]

Personally I see nothing wrong with a certain amount of "supernatural" elements in campaigns. Consider Transcend and Ghost Revenants.

[Phantom Hoover]

Also, why is 'topologically dense physics in subspace' any better than 'magic'? That's really just a better class of technobabble, unless the closure of physics in subspace is equal to subspace.

[General Battuta]

Also, why is 'topologically dense physics in subspace' any better than 'magic'? That's really just a better class of technobabble, unless the closure of physics in subspace is equal to subspace.

How is 'subspace' better than 'magic'?

[Phantom Hoover]

It's not either. I just felt like a good nitpick.

[Apollo]

I still have difficulty imagining how the Shivans could ever be lighter than a very dark shade of grey, though. They've done so many bad things that it would be really hard to make them sympathetic, unless the Vishnans are somehow worse or there are some non-xenocidal Shivans.

Have they done really bad things? In canon, they've been described as "Preservers" and "nomads". In Silent Threat, the GTA/GTI were experimenting on living Shivans. In FreeSpace 2, the Terrans who have been invading "Shivan-space" first, not the other way around.

EDIT: Also, we don't know what the Vishnans really are. For all we know, they could have influenced Samuel Bei's perception of the "dialogue" that the two sides were having in BP1.

The Shivans destroyed Vasuda, and they tried to do the same to Earth, not to mention attempted annihilation of the Terrans and Vasudans. They killed the Ancients when simply crippling them militarily would have been adequate. The GTI may have experimented on them, but that in no way justifies what they did. The GTVA did try to invade their systems, but only after the Shivans destroyed the GTC Vigilant.

They might be preservers, but only in the most horrific way possible: they preserve by commiting xenocide against any two sentient races that ever clash with each other. They've certainly done really bad things.

Yes, we don't know what the Vishnans really are. They might not be much better than the Shivans, but that doesn't change the fact that the Shivans are not nice people.

[The E]

They killed the Ancients when simply crippling them militarily would have been adequate.

Citation needed. Without knowing what the Shivan's plan is (or whether they have one), it's impossible to tell whether a given action by them was overkill, underkill, or just the right amount of kill.

[Apollo]

I find it hard to believe that completely exterminating the Ancients was the right course of action, unless the entire species was somehow completely sociopathic and irredeemably evil (and all we really know from FS canon is that they were imperialistic). That said, if they actually were that bad the Shivans' xenocide of the Ancients looks somewhat less evil.

However, their treatment of the Terrans and Vasudans was not justified, even if it brought the two species closer together.

[An4ximandros]

 Honestly, the Shivans have been sounding more and more like the Ur-Quan Kohr-Ah of Star Control 2:

-Xenocide to prevent the slavery/destruction of other advanced species? Check.
-Born of the subjugation of others from millions of years ago? Check.
-Exterminated a race of slave masters? Check.

 Blue Planet adds the Vishnans which seem to work more like the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za, subjugating for the apparent benefit of all in the long term.

 And they even develop a "doctrinal conflict" in AoA!