Author Topic: Where's the new installer?  (Read 2224 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Where's the new installer?
Our community is ****ed without a retail-grade install solution for end users. We will shrink and die.

What can we do to make this happen?

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Where's the new installer?
I don't think it's that grim, Battuta. But it does require a lot of effort to work out what you're doing, which means you have to really want it. And there are plenty of places you can go wrong.

Plenty of people won't be able to do it even with the guide, and plenty of people won't feel it's worth the effort.

Can't help with actually making an installer though.


 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Where's the new installer?
Lorric please don't post in this thread.

 

Offline niffiwan

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Re: Where's the new installer?
Kidnap Goober & lock him in a room until he finishes coding it?  :nervous:

More seriously, for Linux at least I've started building Fedora packages which will make installing a snap.  ZekeS has completed  the same work for Arch Linux.  We seem to have focus on a cross-platform installer, but I wonder if it's better to use native tools for the job as there's a lot of pre-existing frameworks out there for creating native installers.  Whereas I believe the cross-platform installer that Goober is working on is more of a build it from scratch and replicate the install guide kinda approach.  Diaspora released a Windows installer and an OSX dmg instead of a cross-platform installer. (of course they have the advantage of no retail data... and Linux was left out - but seriously given the fragmentation of Linux distro's I don't blame them!)
Creating a fs2_open.log | Red Alert Bug = Hex Edit | MediaVPs 2014: Bigger HUD gauges | 32bit libs for 64bit Ubuntu
----
Debian Packages (testing/unstable): Freespace2 | wxLauncher
----
m|m: I think I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Bmpman is starting to make sense and it's actually written reasonably well...

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Where's the new installer?
We'll definitely be doing installers for BP in the near future, and if necessary, we'll go standalone like Inferno/Diaspora so that we don't need dependencies. But I really want to see a single solution for getting the latest stable build and MVPs in place.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Where's the new installer?
It's times like these when I really wish I had a decent contribution to be made to the community. :<

 

Offline jg18

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Re: Where's the new installer?
We seem to have focus on a cross-platform installer, but I wonder if it's better to use native tools for the job as there's a lot of pre-existing frameworks out there for creating native installers.  Whereas I believe the cross-platform installer that Goober is working on is more of a build it from scratch and replicate the install guide kinda approach.

I'd say the advantages of having a cross-platform installer are the same as those for having a cross-platform launcher: a single codebase to maintain and develop, coding prerequisites being just a single set of skills (in this case, Java and Swing) rather than skills for the tools specific to each platform, and simplified tech support because of a consistent codebase and UI/UX across all platforms.

Diaspora released a Windows installer and an OSX dmg instead of a cross-platform installer. (of course they have the advantage of no retail data... and Linux was left out - but seriously given the fragmentation of Linux distro's I don't blame them!)

FWIW, the main reason Linux was left out was that no one on the team had the expertise needed to maintain native binary packages (deb, rpm, etc). I was really hoping that people in the various distro communities would create binary packages for their distro, since I thought that at least some communities did for BtRL (although I can't find any links to support that atm), but I guess that was wishful thinking. :blah:


EDIT: As for whether we'll shrink and die without an installer, not sure.  It seems like many people are able and willing to install at least FSO itself manually, but for installing mods, there's probably been a big decrease, since that's quite a bit more complex. If the pool of people playing new and previously unplayed campaigns is drying up -- and it could be -- then yes, that would spell serious trouble for the community IMO.

EDIT 2: I will concede that using the tools for building native offline installers (at least on Windows) is much easier than rolling our own online installer, although I don't know how easy it is to build installers on the other platforms. The difficulty of making the new installer depends a lot on how close it is to being done, though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 02:35:37 am by jg18 »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Where's the new installer?
I built the Diaspora installer pretty easily using Inno Setup. I could probably do something similar for at least the Windows distribution.

When I built the Diaspora installer I made sure to upload everything I used to our FTP. In theory any Window's based Diaspora dev can maintain the setup. Now I could probably quite easily do something similar for Windows distributions of FS2_Open. The biggest issue would be how to distribute (torrents and downloads from FSmods probably) and how to keep things up to date (New builds would be required every time a mod updated).

If we did things using the same script (stored in SVN perhaps) it would only require people to checkout SVN, install the mods needed to subfolders and then the installer setup program could get to work. If we spread the load of who has to build new updates it probably wouldn't become such a big task that people find it too hard to keep doing it.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline niffiwan

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Re: Where's the new installer?
Diaspora released a Windows installer and an OSX dmg instead of a cross-platform installer. (of course they have the advantage of no retail data... and Linux was left out - but seriously given the fragmentation of Linux distro's I don't blame them!)

FWIW, the main reason Linux was left out was that no one on the team had the expertise needed to maintain native binary packages (deb, rpm, etc). I was really hoping that people in the various distro communities would create binary packages for their distro, since I thought that at least some communities did for BtRL (although I can't find any links to support that atm), but I guess that was wishful thinking. :blah:

The biggest reason I haven't tried to package Diaspora is these two issues with wxlauncher :)  They're show-stoppers for using wxlauncher with sane Linux packages and I figure that ditching the launcher and just starting from scripts is not a good idea.  (please note - I'm not trying to criticize you guys about this as I figure you're busy and I know I'm busy, and I haven't mentioned this before!) 


EDIT 2: I will concede that using the tools for building native offline installers (at least on Windows) is a lot easier than rolling our own online installer, although I don't know how easy it is to build installers on the other platforms. The difficulty of making the new installer depends a lot on how close it is to being done, though.

I can't speak for OSX/dmg, but creating Linux packages is pretty easy, especially for content compared to code.  It's mostly just learning the conventions of the relevant distribution.   It usually doesn't require any coding to create the packages (and any coding it usually limited to tweaks to fit the local conventions).  And maybe more importantly, using the native OS tools gives an experience that's consistent with the rest of the users experience with that platform.

Just as an examples, here's the SPEC file I created for the 3.6.14 binary on Fedora.  This, along with the relevant rpmbuild directory structure and the "rpmbuild -ba" command, is all you need to create the package.  Content packages would be simpler than this.

(of course, in posting this I found an error which I've now corrected - so much for easy!!  :lol:  I should also get around to cleaning up the version requirements in the SPEC file too...)

Code: (fs2open3614.spec) [Select]
Name: fs2open3614
Version: 1
Release: 1%{?dist}
# for RC, make it something like
#Release: 0.1.rc1%{?dist}
Summary: Freespace Open Game Engine

BuildRequires: SDL-devel >= 1.2
BuildRequires: libvorbis-devel
BuildRequires: libtheora-devel
BuildRequires: libogg-devel
BuildRequires: automake >= 1.7
BuildRequires: autoconf
BuildRequires: gcc
BuildRequires: gcc-c++
BuildRequires: openal-devel
BuildRequires: readline-devel
BuildRequires: lua-devel
BuildRequires: libpng-devel >= 1.5
BuildRequires: libjpeg-devel

Requires: openal-soft

License: Custom Non-Commercial (http://svn.icculus.org/fs2open/trunk/fs2_open/COPYING)
URL: http://scp.indiegames.us/
Source0: http://swc.fs2downloads.com/builds/fs2_open_3_6_14_src.tgz
Patch1: fs2_open_3_6_14.bininst.patch
Patch2: fs2_open_3_6_14.shield-quads.patch

%description
Upgrade of the 1999 game engine for Freespace2.  This is the core binary
required to run Freespace Open with the original Freespace2 data, mediavps,
mods, or total conversions (e.g. The Babylon Project / Wings of Dawn / Diaspora)

%prep
rm -rf fs2_open*_debug
%setup -q -n fs2_open_3_6_14
%patch1 -p1
%patch2 -p2
# build a debug version as well and put in the same RPM
# maybe there's a better way of doing this?
cd ..
mv fs2_open_3_6_14 fs2_open_3_6_14_debug
%setup -q -n fs2_open_3_6_14
%patch1 -p1
%patch2 -p2

%build
NOCONFIGURE=1 sh autogen.sh
%configure
make %{?_smp_mflags}
# and now the debug version
cd ../fs2_open*_debug
NOCONFIGURE=1 sh autogen.sh
%configure --enable-debug
make %{?_smp_mflags}


%install
rm -rf %{buildroot}
make install DESTDIR=%{buildroot}
# and now the debug version
cd ../fs2_open*_debug
make install DESTDIR=%{buildroot}

%clean
rm -rf %{buildroot}

%post

%preun

%files
%defattr(-,root,root,-)
%{_bindir}/*



%changelog
* Thu Oct 25 2012 [email protected] - 1-1
- Initial Build

Creating a fs2_open.log | Red Alert Bug = Hex Edit | MediaVPs 2014: Bigger HUD gauges | 32bit libs for 64bit Ubuntu
----
Debian Packages (testing/unstable): Freespace2 | wxLauncher
----
m|m: I think I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Bmpman is starting to make sense and it's actually written reasonably well...

 

Offline SypheDMar

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Re: Where's the new installer?
Since we don't have an updated installer yet, can we at least remove the current installer from the FSO Installer page? I believe that people who try to install the outdated FSO Installer will only make the experience for them worse off than if they didn't have one to play with. Less of a headache for us too. Leaving it as-is will be very confusing especially when other gaming sites link to instructions that mention using the FSO Installer.

Instead, can we replace the entire page with something along the lines of "The FreeSpace Open Installer is currently being revamped to be up-to-date. We apologize for the inconvenience. Here's a link to install FSO manually"?

 
Re: Where's the new installer?
"The FreeSpace Open Installer is currently being revamped to be up-to-date. We apologize for the inconvenience. Here's a link to install FSO manually"?
Along with a link to a tech support thread @ HLP.
'Teeth of the Tiger' - campaign in the making
Story, Ships, Weapons, Project Leader.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Where's the new installer?
"The FreeSpace Open Installer is currently being revamped to be up-to-date. We apologize for the inconvenience. Here's a link to install FSO manually"?
Along with a link to a tech support thread @ HLP.

I couldn't agree more.

 
Re: Where's the new installer?
fixing all the tools so they actually work with the default install locations from gog might help

i'm looking at you, wxlauncher
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline jg18

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Re: Where's the new installer?
The biggest reason I haven't tried to package Diaspora is these two issues with wxlauncher :)  They're show-stoppers for using wxlauncher with sane Linux packages and I figure that ditching the launcher and just starting from scripts is not a good idea.  (please note - I'm not trying to criticize you guys about this as I figure you're busy and I know I'm busy, and I haven't mentioned this before!)

Oh, right. Well, 92 (the first one) is tricky in that that behavior is not officially supported by the SCP, at least not at this time. As for 93 (the second one), we'll need to look into what we can do, although I guess addressing just one of the two issues might not help that much.

I can't speak for OSX/dmg, but creating Linux packages is pretty easy, especially for content compared to code.  It's mostly just learning the conventions of the relevant distribution.   It usually doesn't require any coding to create the packages (and any coding it usually limited to tweaks to fit the local conventions).  And maybe more importantly, using the native OS tools gives an experience that's consistent with the rest of the users experience with that platform.

Yeah, admittedly a cross-platform installer will not provide a native user experience, and maintaining native offline installers is vastly easier, although again, how difficult making the new installer is depends on how close it is to finished. But having a single online installer has big advantages over having a bunch of offline ones (single download rather than up to one per mod, only need a single installer executable, smaller downloads because you only download what you want/need, etc.) and I dunno if there are good tools for building native ones.


fixing all the tools so they actually work with the default install locations from gog might help

i'm looking at you, wxlauncher

Huh? I don't know what you're referring to. The reason the default GOG install location is unusable is because Windows UAC makes it impossible to install mods and such if FSO is in C:\Program Files. As the install instructions put it:

Quote
"C:\Games\FreeSpace2\" is the install location used by the original retail disc release of FS2.
The GOG version will default to installing to "C:\Program Files (x86)" (especially for 64-bit versions of Vista/Win 7) and we do not want that location.
Why? Because it's a protected operating system folder that is covered by UAC and will therefore make it very difficult, if not impossible, for you to use mods or make changes to your install.

 
Re: Where's the new installer?
It's also unusable because wxlauncher doesn't support spaces in pathnames. Your reason makes much more sense (although it seems it'd be more elegant in the long run just to make the game support mods outside your FS directory).
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Where's the new installer?
Kidnap Goober & lock him in a room until he finishes coding it?  :nervous:
Pretty much this. :nervous:  Or harass me via thread, PM, or IRC.

The revamped installer is awesome and will get done.  I just need to tackle a major concurrency hurdle and then it should be off to making fast progress again.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Where's the new installer?
Lol where did I hear that before? ahaha. I'd love to tell you "take your time", but it seems you can't do that! :D

Seriously though, I have no right to demand anything and appreciate everything you have done so far. A revamped installer would be awesome though :D

  

Offline niffiwan

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Re: Where's the new installer?
The biggest reason I haven't tried to package Diaspora is these two issues with wxlauncher :)  They're show-stoppers for using wxlauncher with sane Linux packages and I figure that ditching the launcher and just starting from scripts is not a good idea.  (please note - I'm not trying to criticize you guys about this as I figure you're busy and I know I'm busy, and I haven't mentioned this before!)

Oh, right. Well, 92 (the first one) is tricky in that that behavior is not officially supported by the SCP, at least not at this time. As for 93 (the second one), we'll need to look into what we can do, although I guess addressing just one of the two issues might not help that much.

Actually, 92 does have a work-around, namely symlinking the binaries to the appropriate FSO/TC folder.  It's not pretty, it's brittle, it doesn't follow LSB conventions (etc etc etc), but it'll get the job done.  So even if just 93 is resolved (even if 92 can't be resolved until the SCP officially support the feature) then that would help :)
Creating a fs2_open.log | Red Alert Bug = Hex Edit | MediaVPs 2014: Bigger HUD gauges | 32bit libs for 64bit Ubuntu
----
Debian Packages (testing/unstable): Freespace2 | wxLauncher
----
m|m: I think I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Bmpman is starting to make sense and it's actually written reasonably well...

 

Offline jg18

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Re: Where's the new installer?
It's also unusable because wxlauncher doesn't support spaces in pathnames.

I can't reproduce this in Windows 7 x86. wxL 0.9.1 supports reading executables and launching FSO from "C:\Games\FreeSpace 2" as far as I can tell.

If you're convinced this is an issue, then please report it in the wxL release thread (or even better, the wxL bug tracker) with a full description, including your system specs and steps to reproduce.

Your reason makes much more sense (although it seems it'd be more elegant in the long run just to make the game support mods outside your FS directory).

Feel free to start a thread on that topic in the SCP board.


EDIT:

Actually, 92 does have a work-around, namely symlinking the binaries to the appropriate FSO/TC folder.  It's not pretty, it's brittle, it doesn't follow LSB conventions (etc etc etc), but it'll get the job done.  So even if just 93 is resolved (even if 92 can't be resolved until the SCP officially support the feature) then that would help :)

Good to know, thanks. We'll take a look when we can.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 09:20:33 am by jg18 »