[Mr. Vega]

If a game has killable NPCs, and there is a level in a strip club, then there is absolutely nothing sexist about killable strippers. In fact, it would be sexist to have a special exception for strippers to not be killable!! So that is not a valid argument at all.

The existence of a strip club level itself is another matter, however I think it fits into the criminal underwordly narrative of Hitman games so I hesitate to call it sexist.

It comes down to this: do we really need to have games in which we can walk into a strip club, gawk at strippers, and then kill them?

[666maslo666]

The goal is not to engage the trolls - it's to throw them into everyone's field of view, to get everyone who isn't a troll to act.

That is the goal of trolls, too. Trolls thrive on publicity.

From a strategic point of view the best thing to do is to ignore the trolls, if you want them to stop. Thats just how it is.

[Lorric]

If a game has killable NPCs, and there is a level in a strip club, then there is absolutely nothing sexist about killable strippers. In fact, it would be sexist to have a special exception for strippers to not be killable!! So that is not a valid argument at all.

The existence of a strip club level itself is another matter, however I think it fits into the criminal underwordly narrative of Hitman games so I hesitate to call it sexist.

It comes down to this: do we really need to have games in which we can walk into a strip club, gawk at strippers, and then kill them?

I think it would be more pertinent to ask do we need to not have games where you can kill strippers.

Because you could say we don't need to have games full stop.

[666maslo666]

It comes down to this: do we really need to have games in which we can walk into a strip club, gawk at strippers, and then kill them?

Do we need games with killable NPCs?

Yes, we do.

Do we need games that include a strip club?

Ocassionaly, yes, strip clubs are part of life and thus have their place in any storytelling medium, including games, if it fits the narrative.

Therefore, yes, we ocassionaly need that kind of games where we can walk into a strip club, gawk at strippers, and then kill them.

Do you see how that is not sexist in itself?

[MP-Ryan]

It's to our detriment to focus our attention on her critique of hitman to the exclusion of the other games she discusses.

Agreed.  I did end up listening to a chunk of her latest video.  While she has a number of examples that are blatant and I also disagree with, there are also a number of examples that I think she teeters over that de minimis line.  Things like the sequence from BioShock, the portion of RDR concerning the rescue of the named female NPC, and the example from the latest Assassin's Creed being among them.

At a broader level, this is why I find the Marxist school of thought with a side of Foucault to be much more useful than feminist sociological perspectives, because I find that school often gets too focused on the trees and misses the fact that someone just clearcut a continent. (I'm just using all kinds of metaphor today).

[swashmebuckle]

It would be nice if people could just admit that they enjoy exploitative power fantasies rather than bending over backwards to try to defend the games as being non-exploitative. These are some repressed individuals.

[Nuke]

If a game has killable NPCs, and there is a level in a strip club, then there is absolutely nothing sexist about killable strippers. In fact, it would be sexist to have a special exception for strippers to not be killable!! So that is not a valid argument at all.

The existence of a strip club level itself is another matter, however I think it fits into the criminal underwordly narrative of Hitman games so I hesitate to call it sexist.

It comes down to this: do we really need to have games in which we can walk into a strip club, gawk at strippers, and then kill them?

i want my torture simulator.

[MP-Ryan]

It comes down to this: do we really need to have games in which we can walk into a strip club, gawk at strippers, and then kill them?

I think this is the wrong question.

I think a better question is: would you support a game developer who makes games in which exercising free will within the game's limits in a blatantly discriminatory manner has no consequences?

My answer is, obviously, no.  I think it requires thoughtful critique.  That said, I despise games that impose unrealistic, jarring, artificial limits on player agency within the game world that are inconsistent with the games normal mechanics.  Games like the original Mass Effect did this wrong - you ever notice how if you shoot at non-hostile or friendly NPCs, you just miss, despite being able to pack your gun around the entirety of Citadel Station?  On the other hand, to use Dishonored again - sure, I can stab a Loyalist in the neck or hop in the bath with Callista, but I will face immediate and realistic contextual consequences for doing so (game ends, conspiracy dissolved).

Should we insist games avoid sexist stereotypes for locales and characters?  Fine line, there.  I'd prefer games embrace those stereotypes and show how they are an undesirable reality, rather than ignore them altogether.

[MP-Ryan]

It would be nice if people could just admit that they enjoy exploitative power fantasies rather than bending over backwards to try to defend the games as being non-exploitative. These are some repressed individuals.

I'm thrilled that you felt the need to bring a carefully broad passive-aggressive characterization to a thread which has many nuanced positions amidst some unfortunate chaffe as well.  I'm obviously hoping that wasn't aimed at me, but it is rather difficult to tell.  Perhaps you would like to join the discussion?

[Meneldil]

Sure, you can find people beating up and killing the strippers in videos too, but there's nothing wrong with playing a game like that, and you're not a bad person for doing so

wow

[AdmiralRalwood]

In watching some of her latest Tropes Vs Women, I note that a number of these critiques focus on depictions that could be considered historical in nature.  Audiences are already very familiar with the historical inequality of women, and it makes sense in a historical context to use these sorts of quasi-realistic depictions to advance narrative and setting, particularly in game worlds that rely on immersive settings that are not present-day reality.  She critiques that violence against women is used as a setpiece, but ignores the fact that it is a realistic setpiece based on material we are all familiar with from history and even modern day life.  I agree that gratuitous use of this is inappropriate, but there are a number of scenarios in which this makes contextual sense.  At what point is displaying objectification gratuitous, versus simply factual?

Is it really historically-accurate, though?

[Nuke]

id rather you beat up strippers in a game than in real life. its not the job of game developers to dictate morality. trying to force ones views on someone with a gameplay mechanic sounds kind of like propaganda.

i rather liked games like carmageddon, where you get awesome awards for splattering pedestrians into your grill. you might take issue if the driver only plowed through female pedestrians (granny was always my favorite). but the whole game was purely about committing blatant acts of vehicular homicide. give the feminists what they want and then the anti murder people will want some too.

[Lorric]

Sure, you can find people beating up and killing the strippers in videos too, but there's nothing wrong with playing a game like that, and you're not a bad person for doing so

wow

Explain. Please.

[Mr. Vega]

id rather you beat up strippers in a game than in real life. its not the job of game developers to dictate morality. trying to force ones views on someone with a gameplay mechanic sounds kind of like propaganda.

Yes, we don't want to brainwash people into thinking killing strippers is wrong.

[Akalabeth Angel]

It comes down to this: do we really need to have games in which we can walk into a strip club, gawk at strippers, and then kill them?

Do we need games with killable NPCs?

Yes, we do.

Do we need games that include a strip club?

Ocassionaly, yes, strip clubs are part of life and thus have their place in any storytelling medium, including games, if it fits the narrative.

Therefore, yes, we ocassionaly need that kind of games where we can walk into a strip club, gawk at strippers, and then kill them.

Do you see how that is not sexist in itself?

Hitman Absolution, not sexist at all:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ_jhw5TuxA

[Lorric]

id rather you beat up strippers in a game than in real life. its not the job of game developers to dictate morality. trying to force ones views on someone with a gameplay mechanic sounds kind of like propaganda.

Yes, we don't want to brainwash people into thinking killing strippers is wrong.

If we started down this road, most games would end up off the market.

[Mr. Vega]

Should we insist games avoid sexist stereotypes for locales and characters?  Fine line, there.  I'd prefer games embrace those stereotypes and show how they are an undesirable reality, rather than ignore them altogether.

Then do it well and take it seriously. Don't use it cause you need a cheap way to make your game 'dark' or so you can create victims for the male hero to save.

[MP-Ryan]

Should we insist games avoid sexist stereotypes for locales and characters?  Fine line, there.  I'd prefer games embrace those stereotypes and show how they are an undesirable reality, rather than ignore them altogether.

Then do it well and take it seriously. Don't use it cause you need a cheap way to make your game 'dark' or so you can create victims for the male hero to save.

Is it really historically-accurate, though?

There is an extensive and well-documented history of the murder, mutilation, beating, raping, subjugation, and oppression of women by virtually all cultures in one form or another throughout history.  We're not exactly lacking for source material.  The history of some of the world's most prominent religions are practically treatises on the subject.

The treatment of this history in games is often uncritical and mishandled, but it draws definitively from verifiable history.  I don't think its inclusion in games is problematic; I think it's treatment can be better handled.  But again, this comes back to the lesser offences point; given the choice between tackling that issue, which is a relative non-starter among big studios at present, I think there's a much better argument for asking them to give my female DA:O protagonist some armour that covers her ****ing legs and midriff.

[Akalabeth Angel]

id rather you beat up strippers in a game than in real life. its not the job of game developers to dictate morality. trying to force ones views on someone with a gameplay mechanic sounds kind of like propaganda.

Yes, we don't want to brainwash people into thinking killing strippers is wrong.

If we started down this road, most games would end up off the market.

Good.
Then we'd get more games with a brain in them like Papers Please instead of a bunch of AAA Michael Bay wanna-bes.

Get more games like Spec Ops The Line and their ilk. Games that make you think, games that educate while still being enjoyable. Games which help people relate and empathize with other people instead of creating a world where its okay to make death threats over twitter and ordinary people applaud acts like Phil Fish getting hacked and having all his personal information leaked. What kind of world or culture do we ****ing live in where someone's life can get invaded and people are happy about it?

Honestly I don't identify myself a "gamer" because gamers like those on escapist more often than not disgust me. Threads like this bring to light more despicable individuals (in the twitter post, not the participants).

And how can games be considered art when NPC and setting interactions like those described in Hitman are considered a perfectly acceptable bar rather than something that should be pushed higher and explored with greater maturity and narrative depth.

"You can sneak through a strip club, listen to and beat up strippers. Games are art"
No games, as they are now,  are largely trash.

[Phantom Hoover]

Re Hitman: what, exactly, is the 'correct' way to do things, then? Not have strippers in the game (strip clubs do, after all, exist, and do contain strippers)? Make the strippers immune to bullets? Instafail the player for harming one? To me, one of these solutions is a cop-out and the others are really jarring to the mechanics of the game. The line of reasoning that having violent mechanics in a game and allowing them to be used on women somehow promotes violence against women (even when it's mechanically and narratively disincentivised!) is completely broken.