So after that
other thread went into the obvious flames everyone guessed it was going into, there are still ideas floating around that I find possible to discuss in a rational, sensible manner about the actual topic that I believe we should be discussing, objectification of women (and men? perhaps not?), and I propose using particular examples to try to dissect where people's opinions differ on this, and why.
I think this is possible, because I have noticed that the harsh emotional rants, back and forths, flame wars, accusations, harrassments (and even death threats in some places) and what nots in both here and especially in the wider internet are all about
particular people*, not the subject at hand. When people are discussed rather than the topics, is it any wonder the **** hits the fan? I personally believe the internet "made" the mistake to be more concerned with human drama than the material at hand, and I thought,
"why not try the exact opposite approach?" That's the purpose of this thread, to bring out the best parts of that last thread into the prominent topic of this one. Level up the discussion so to speak.
In order to kick this off, I thought to bring two examples, one already partially discussed from Watch Dogs and another yet to be discussed from Hitman. I have a formed opinion on both of these examples, but they are not brick and mortar, and I think we can all learn a thing from each other with this dissection. I think it would be awesome if everyone interested tried to bring their own particular example that they thought interesting to discuss.
The hitman exampleSo it happens that there is a special mission within Hitman wherein you are on a rooftop and with a sniper rifle you have to shoot down evidence for an act of your client. Apparently it involves finding and shooting three pieces of clothing scattered inside a huge building filled with roofttops and parties and people and whatnot. If you manage to do that, this is your prize: a woman dancing for you (pole dancing style) behind a window. Let this be clear: this is a
prize. This kind of objectification is undeniable and
condoned by the game itself as an award to you the player. Furthermore, you are looking at her
from a ****ing scope, and yes, you can kill her at any time, but who cares, it's just a whore right?
This to me is the kind of women objectification that can be seen as a perfect baseline of consensus. Not even the most prominent ... ahh...
skeptics in the youtubes and whatnots would deny this (well I might be wrong there but still). Am I wrong in assuming this? Your thoughts?
The Watch Dogs exampleNow things get a bit more nuanced and complex. Yes, the "women for sale" example. This has been highlighted as an example of women objectification. I think this particular truth is consensual. I think it's also consensual that the game itself is
aware of this ghastly truth so it doesn't sell you the idea that this is "ok" in the narrative sense (unlike in the former example in Hitman, or say in Duke Nukem where you get to pay women to dance for you, while saying
"shake it baby" and so on). It's painted as a dark setting painting everyone inside it as psychopathic monsters, or mysoginists, or whatever other nasty adjectives you might prefer. The protagonist is an "outsider" who is trying to do something else, merely observing the darkness around him.
The argument why this is still a bad thing is that the trope is about
using a woman's objectification as a way to characterize your antagonists, which is a lot more subtle than the mere brute usage of plain objectification. The point is that both the game and yourself are aware and disgusted at the objectification taking place, but are both revelling in the fantasy of shredding the people responsible for it, and in doing so you are indeed taking part of the objectification. Perhaps this can be more eloquently stated.
The problem I have with this interpretation is not that I don't believe in it. I do. It makes sense. The problem is of course that this is not necessarily "bad" per se. Not everyone inside games will be written with gusto or sufficient development. Shortcuts will be used. Tropes will be used to quickly paint bad people, and this is an effective manner to do so: to show the "bad things people do". And the set of
"bad things" also includes "women being sold". What I probably think is an issue is the
prevalence of these types of tropes, which in conjunction can create the idea that women are only these passive objects that are used by bad people. This is a different point. Or is it? What do you think?
* Given all the wild speculation people made about my beliefs, I just want to stress that my thoughts on a certain woman is strictly because of a story wherein I honestly think she was most definitely behaving in a psychopathic way, I have never taken 4chan seriously and never will take their paranoia without such grains of salt that turn them relevant. It's also a moot thing. I am not interested in discussing people, period. Hope that settles it.