[Spoon]

Since the previous topic got locked by The_E for no reason given and since he is asleep now and can't read my pm, I'll just make a new thread. Seems like I win, checkmate The_E

Okay sure, the other thread was a bit of ****post, but I brought up a legit point. Let everyone just have an forum avatar. And then for the weak argument of "but muh clean looking forum", just add an option to turn off avatars, for the people that want their 'uncluttered' forum. The option is there for signatures, so why not.

And the title thing I brought up, that is something that has actually legitely annoyed me for a long time. For a forum that is about modders and bringing them together, the admins have done a terrible job of branding contributing members with incredibly ****ty titles for posts made either drunk, or in jest or in legit general discussion. For example Battuta's title of 'Poe's Law In Action'. Accomplished writer, Rank S fredder, and this is the title he gets? It doesn't even apply to him. This is just one example, there are others.
Rather give people acknowledgement for their modding contributions?

[jr2]

I always thought it was more of a forum style / tradition.  But, so was the Welcome Speech^TM, and the Welcome Beam^TM, and those were discontinued (well, actively discouraged, welcome beams discouraged in support threads unless accompanied by useful post) as no longer relevant or wanted, so it appears change is possible, for better or worse.  More power to users (avatars for all + on/off switch), and a more positive environment (user titles) seems like a win in my book, for what it's worth.

[Mongoose]

Srsly though, you may have a bit of a point that some users' titles could use, er, refreshing, but the majority of them are gag things at this point anyway.   Also mentioning titles has historically been the best way to earn an unflattering one.  :drevil:

[Axem]

Speaking as Axem the Canadian guy and not Axem the Admin,

Avatars: I really don't see why not, every other internet forum has an option for one. If people don't like seeing them, there is already a disable avatars option so its not like its much more work on that side of things. I mean I have sigs turned off on HLP because I find that they are so much more distracting and space wasting than avatars. Admins (and other staff) already have a special admin badge anyway to distinguish them.

Titles: I think they should just get completely tossed. It might've been funny when everyone was close and everyone joked around a lot, but the jokes are lost on the new people and maybe some people don't like a title they get permanently on a whim from someone they don't know at all. All members already have a personal text thing they can edit that many members are already using as a title-lite anyway.

And I think it would be cool if member profiles could be targetted to sharing their works better. Like a small link on the side bar that's just like "Campaigns: 5", "Models: 10", "Mods: 9,000" etc and clicking those brings you to their forum profile where there are links to those. There have been quite a few times that I'm looking for a model that I know someone like Droid803 released and its not on the wiki, so I have to go through his profile and see the threads he's started to find what I'm looking for.

[Spoon]

@jr2: Glad you agree, though I find it amusing that HLP is apparantly so stagnant and stuck in traditions from 2001 that it's something of a suprise that change is possible at all 

@Mongoose: "nope"? nope what? Could you actually present an argument on why you wouldn't want a win-win situation?

@Axem: Excellent post, agreed.

[Black Wolf]

On titles, I long ago stopped caring about mine, but the vast majority are just really obscure. I don't know that they add much any more - the community is vastly different to what it was 10 plus years ago - losing them entirely, or putting a hard 1 year limit on them, wouldn't be a problem IMO.

On avatars, however I'm solidly in the "Nope" camp with Mongoose. I just can't see a scenario where people aren't either complaining about ****ty, annoying avatars (if it's free for all), or complaining that the image they want isn't there (if they select from a forum series).

We've never needed them before, they add nothing, I don't think we need them now.

[Spoon]

I just can't see a scenario where people aren't either complaining about ****ty, annoying avatars (if it's free for all)

Of all of the many forums I've been on, I have literally never seen this actually be a thing. People complaining enmass about 'annoying avatars'. You are afraid of nothing.

We've never needed them before, they add nothing, I don't think we need them now.

This is such an non-argument. We don't 'need' signatures, nor do we 'need' a personal text or titles or anything that adds a bit of personal flair. Or hell, do you need to color all your posts with your special [bw ] color tag? Seems oddly hypocritical? You get to have your special post flair but others cannot?
If you don't like avatars, then just turn them off. 

It's always the typical oldvets here that seem so resistant to adding anything new. :/ More options is generally considered a good thing by most people.

[niffiwan]

While I find a "me too" doesn't generally help, I think avatars, as long as they have an option to be disabled, are great. They let forumites express their individuality & artistic talents, assuming they want to create their own. I suppose some sort of guidelines on selecting them would need to be implemented; maybe need to be mod, TC or Freespace related? Seems easier to set a desired direction rather than try to list a billion things that aren't allowed, or I guess we could just point at the forum guidelines (because they aren't controversial, are they  )

Titles I'm more "meh"; but as other have mentioned most of the in-jokes are quite old, incomprehensible and thus don't add anything for newer members. Maybe just turf them and leave the humour to the custom text.

[Axem]

I too have never heard of community wide grievances towards avatars (except on HLP). They're a standard feature in 99% of forums and commenting systems, all internet users are used to them at this point. And it's not like avatars are despised by FreeSpace communities. Sectorgame has them, Game-Warden has them. I don't recall any complaining there. They're not really a curse or a plague on a community.

Avatars wouldn't need to be an uncontrollable free-for-all. I mean we could let users upload their own but with certain restrictions. They could be kept small (64x64 or 128x128), no animated gifs, no objectionable material in them.

(Also if we've never needed them before, then shouldn't admins not have them either? We have special admin badges anyway for people to notice who we are.)

[NGTM-1R]

Custom title update jihad.

Sounds fun.

[General Battuta]

[karajorma]

And I think it would be cool if member profiles could be targetted to sharing their works better. Like a small link on the side bar that's just like "Campaigns: 5", "Models: 10", "Mods: 9,000" etc and clicking those brings you to their forum profile where there are links to those. There have been quite a few times that I'm looking for a model that I know someone like Droid803 released and its not on the wiki, so I have to go through his profile and see the threads he's started to find what I'm looking for.

Now that's an idea I like. In fact I think it's far more important than avatars or titles so I'm going to talk about it first.

We'd have to make sure it's not abused (for instance you can only bump the number if you have actually RELEASED something.) but it would be really nice. Project badges go some of the way towards doing that but giving every user a page where they can display the stuff they have done would be a really good idea. Not just mods though, anything community related. So my page for instance would have links to the new FRED documentation and tutorials I've written.




When it comes to avatars, the only real argument I've heard in favour of Avatars for the admins only is that it allows you to instantly tell who is an admin so that you know who is in charge. But given that global mods can also hand out warnings etc, that is kinda moot unless they have them too.

I would suggest we have avatars for everyone (Which can be switched on and off) and a separate set for admins and moderators which can't be turned off. It would also be kinda cool if you are a forum mod you had an avatar for that which only appears on posts in that forum. So whenever Spoon posts on the WoD forum he'd have a separate avatar show up.

[Spoon]

Good posts 

[Axem]

I think the per-board moderator avatar idea might clutter it up a little too much. I mean Spoon would have his normal avatar, a super WoD Avatar along with his other badges (which already has another WoD badge in it anyway).

Also this already sort of happens right now. Go into the WoD forum, Spoon has a moderator title there. Now look at his posts here, no moderator title. _{Now look at me.} So I think in that regard its obvious enough that he's the authority figure there. We could refine it to be a little more specific so its like "Project Moderator" or "Project Lead" or something that denotes his status there. We could also bold or colorize the special titles like they are in the Who's Online at the bottom of the forum for Admins and GMs.

[karajorma]

Well clutter would be an issue, but only for those who hadn't turned avatars off. For those who had, it would be exactly the same as HLP is now except that global moderators and forum moderators would now also have avatars.

Or we could have an avatar for team members. I just think it would be nice if when you were on the Diaspora boards and you could instantly tell that you were talking to someone from the Diaspora team. Having to search for a badge (which may have several other badges nearby) somewhat complicates things.

For de-cluttering things, there is plenty we could remove anyway. Do we really need to have post counts twice? Once as the fake post count (since it ignores several forums) and once as the power of two? If we have avatars, do we still need the personal text? People are already suggesting we get rid of titles. I certainly have no particular attachment to them. I haven't given out a title in ages.

Maybe someone should start photoshopping a few examples.

[General Battuta]

Maybe someone should start photoshopping a few examples.

[Scotty]

Or we could have an avatar for team members. I just think it would be nice if when you were on the Diaspora boards and you could instantly tell that you were talking to someone from the Diaspora team. Having to search for a badge (which may have several other badges nearby) somewhat complicates things.

Make badges a forum-specific thing, so you can't get like eight of them all at times and keep that from being an issue entirely.  Or put the badge in front of their name if they're on that project instead.

Or come up with different color FS2 logos and have those as secondary avatars on a given board, like the BattleTech forums do with different colored Battlemaster silhouettes designating moderators/writers/administrators.

I'm 90% sure that most of the reason Spoon is annoyed at all this is because avatars are exclusive rewards for certain members right now and merely expanding the criteria for what constitutes an avatar reward is not a good solution for that annoyance.

[Axem]

I don't think we should look at avatars as rewards, just as personal flair. If everyone gets one then the avatars aren't so special.

Now I think it's nice to have project badges be visible everywhere, it's part of a advertisement to your mod and it lets you further represent you and your work when you're outside of your home board. You could have a "Oh, that guy with a BP badge just praised my ship, I will check that out!" or a "Wow that guy with the JAD badge is a jerk, I'm never playing his mod."

And I'd be totally on board for axing post count stuff. I can't think of any time its ever come in useful or was necessary.

Here's a rough mockup I did real quick. The staff position part would only show in boards where they hold that position. So project moderator or administrator would go there (with icon). And the avatar size here is just about 90x90 which I don't think is that disruptive...



(Also while we're talking bright, annoying and eye gouging avatars, my JAD badge, which is bright, annoying and eye gouging, has received zero complaints in the two years its been around.  )

[karajorma]

Mine idea was somewhere close to yours. Except with a stretched version of the badge replacing the green moderator text. Perhaps having one of those for any member of the team whenever we are on the relevant board.

The idea is not to give out avatars as rewards, but to have a clearer sign when you are talking to someone involved on that project. Basically if someone switched off avatars the anime girl would go but nothing else.

As for post count. I don't mind showing it, it does help to know who is new around here. There are a few times when I've found it useful with people who weren't very active or who post again after a long time absent.

[Goober5000]

Since the previous topic got locked by The_E for no reason given and since he is asleep now and can't read my pm, I'll just make a new thread. Seems like I win, checkmate The_E

Demanding that forum tradition be changed to suit your personal preferences, ****posting about it, ignoring a global moderator's moderation action, and then taunting that global moderator are all extremely childish ways of making inquiries of the forum staff.  Do you want us to treat you like a child?  After all, according to your profile, you are a female 13-year-old located in a state of confusion.

I always thought it was more of a forum style / tradition.  But, so was the Welcome Speech^TM, and the Welcome Beam^TM, and those were discontinued (well, actively discouraged, welcome beams discouraged in support threads unless accompanied by useful post)

It was specifically the fact that users were posting a welcome beam or speech and nothing else that was discouraged.  The last thing users want to see if they are looking for help is a completely irrelevant post.  Once this stopped being a problem, enforcement was lessened.  You may have noticed that both the welcome beam and welcome speech have popped up occasionally in recent years.


Avatars: There are several reasons.  One, having an avatar is one of the perks, as distinct from responsibilities, of being an admin.  It's a small bit of compensation for the things that admins do, whether it's moderating, maintenance, server management, funding management, personnel management, dispute resolution, or any of the various hats that people wear around here.  Two, restricting avatars to admins removes the need to police every single user's avatar to see if it's appropriate or not.  Three, restricting avatars de-clutters the forum flow and provides a way for admin posts to stand out from other posts.  As far as users' personal achievements are concerned, badges are a way to illustrate project membership or screenshot contest achievement.  And there's also the board-specific additional text that Axem mentioned.

Titles: This is at the admins' discretion.  Often, titles illustrate some noticeable incident that happened on the forum.  Just as often, they represent some sort of in-joke.  Every now and then a user will request a title, and depending on the nature of the request, it is sometimes granted.  Provided the user is acting reasonably, the request is more often than not played straight.

(Incidentally, I've already told Black Wolf that I intend to grant him a new custom title once Twisted Infinities Act I is released.  That has been a standing offer for a number of years now...)

Custom colors: Black Wolf has his custom color tag because he asked for it.  Spoon, did you even bother asking for a custom color tag?  Or did you formulate an assumption and then start attacking that assumption?

As to whether HLP is stuck in 2001... you are a member of a forum that focuses on a game that dates back to 1998.  I hardly think you're in a position to complain about the perception of how current trends or traditions are.

Now then, Spoon, I can see that your custom title ranting is not without merit.  Accordingly, I have assigned you a suitable title.