Author Topic: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)  (Read 7130 times)

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Offline WMCoolmon

  • Purveyor of space crack
  • 213
Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
A features list for the SCP, organized somehow, but at the very least just getting all the features down and a description of what each does and why you would want to use it, possibly how. I don't really care exactly how it's done, it just needs to be done. Someone needs to take charge, figure out a way to organize it, and figure out a good way to sort through the already existing features.

I'm getting tired of wondering whether nobody seems to be using or talking about the majority of features because they're having no problems using them, they don't care, or they don't know about them. But given how "organized" the documentation is on features, I'd guess that there are a lot in the latter category.
-C

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
I tend to agree that we need this. We should also have a recent additions section so that you can see at a glance if you've missed anything if you go away for a couple of weeks on holiday.

It would need to be used though. Based on the recent additions section in the FRED portal it looks like I'm the only person adding stuff to FRED. :D
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline ARSPR

  • Preys On Mantis
  • 29
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
WOW. This is just THE WIKI WORK...

But it needs to be done and if you want to finish a marathon, you need to run the very first step.

So although I'm no expert, I'd like to start the list the next week. Maybe it could be a scratch for other people to fill and at least developers will have a place to post everything new they add from now on...

My first ideas:
  • I would split this section in two main pages:
    • SCP additions. It would be the main list which I'll cover through my post. I would put the link to it just after FreeSpace Source Code Project > Getting Started.
    • Did you know ...?. Trying to explain what you can do with every feature can kill the feature list. For some tricks you need several new features or a feature can allow several useful usages. Instead of mixing both sections I would add another section (maybe under Modding), where people could explain the useful tricks they know. These tricks can even use retail features. As I will tell lthrough all the post, the key is adding a lot of links (crossed if needed):
      • If you add a new trick which uses several functions, put links to them in the trick explanation.
      • AND add links in those function items to that trick too. Maybe every item in the feature list could have a Useful usage in: section.
  • For the feature list, I would use just a single page with all the functions listed, (exactly like launcher flags help). It can lead to a nearly endless page, but it has one exceptional advantage: you can search the whole feature list within Ctrl+F in your browser, knowing there's no other hidden page where the thing your looking for can be hidden.
  • In order to keep the list with the smallest possible size, it must contain really small explanations when possible. Whenever possible I would put just a Description, a See explanation in section where you put links to any other pages in the Wiki, and the formerly explained Usage tips:.
  • Of course, when there's no other in-depth explanation in other place through the wiki, you should put it here. But the main target would always be keeping this section as brief as possible. Just links, links and more links. Maybe you could even create new pages for every feature instead of typing all the stuff here, (in a similar way as WIP file types from Modding Portal>Data Structure).(And then please add a Return link in all those pages).
  • I suggest the next main categories in the feature list.
    • Mission features. All the new stuff you can add to missions through FRED, ie. new sexps, backgrounds, new mission options, ...
    • FRED interface improvements. Any other FRED improvements, like Voice Acting Manager, which don't fall in the previous one.
    • Graphic improvements. All the extra graphical capabilities added like OGL support, shine, glow, env or normal mapping...
    • Sound improvements. Just the same with sound (ogg support as example).
    • Game interface improvements. F3 Lab, showing models in loadout screen, showing ship info in hud, extended hud capabilities...
    • Model improvements. Higher poly limits, glow points ...
    • Tables and modding improvements. Everything that allow modders to customize FS2 and it's not directly set in FRED as a mission feature. Examples: Data management (-MOD flag), extended texture format support, modular tables, "un-hardcoded" tables like iff_defs, 3D shockwaves, 3D warp effects ...
    • Scripting. (I know nothing about it)
    • Multiplayer. (I know nothing about it, again)
    • Coding enhancements. Technical coder info which maybe is not directly seen in game but needs to be told. Like "I have changed all the arrays with pointers in this subroutine". (Sorry if I'm telling nonsenses but I'm no coder at all, I think you can imagine what I want to say).
    • ... Any ideas welcome ... But I wouldn't use a really extensive category list. It can be a PITA to set each section limit...
  • I know that a lot of features can go in several sections, (example enhanced texture support can be graphical or modding). I think it doesn't matter. Just duplicate the entry whenever you want but just fill one of them. In the other one just put a link. (As I've said before, links, links and more links).
  • A very risky idea: Classify each feature with a colour code red for extremely important additions, normal font for most of them, and green for minor additions or tweaks. Of course it would be just a subjective selection.
  • The editing guidelines, (be extremely brief, use auxiliary pages instead, use links) would be posted at the beginning of the page.

Well, what do you think about it? Any comments? May I risk starting it (and opening maybe a Pandora's Box)?
IF YOU HAVE TROUBLES WITH FS2:
  • Please, please, please, READ and UNDERSTAND the sticky threads in FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support board.
    A lot of people are willing to help you, but, as anyone can understand, seeing the very same "issues" repeated again and again can become quite depressing. Please, spend a bit of time trying to solve the issue by yourself.
    (Lobo deserves a monument).
  • Then, if you aren't still able to solve your issue, feel free to ask for help in that same board.
    FYI, most of the troubles are caused by wrong mod installations which lead to either missing data or undesired cross-effects between them. Always follow the mod installation instructions and keep a clean FS2 installation as explained in the sticky threads. Two additional links about how the game handles game data:
  • If you think that you've discovered a bug, mantis it.
    Provide as much info as you can, and try to narrow it down. A lonely "FS2 doesn't work" is not a good report.

Whoever Hanlon was: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Albert Einstein: Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

Dell Dimension 9200 - Vista 32-bit Ultimate
Core 2 Quad Q6600 @2.4GHz - RAM 2 GB DDR2
nvidia 8800 GTX - Integrated Sigmatel Audio

 

Offline RazorsKiss

  • 28
  • The Cutting Edge
    • RazorsKiss.net
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
Nice.
Fringespace - Tachyon: Revived   ModDB Listing   Razorskiss.net 

You only think you can outfly me.

 

Offline ARSPR

  • Preys On Mantis
  • 29
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
I tend to agree that we need this. We should also have a recent additions section so that you can see at a glance if you've missed anything if you go away for a couple of weeks on holiday.
It would need to be used though. Based on the recent additions section in the FRED portal it looks like I'm the only person adding stuff to FRED. :D

That is also nice. Each entry could have also a Addition date or build section. At least, it could be easily set for NEW features if, as Karajorma points, developers or assigned beta-testers do fill it...

But one flaw, how the hell could you filter through it?  :confused: :confused:
IF YOU HAVE TROUBLES WITH FS2:
  • Please, please, please, READ and UNDERSTAND the sticky threads in FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support board.
    A lot of people are willing to help you, but, as anyone can understand, seeing the very same "issues" repeated again and again can become quite depressing. Please, spend a bit of time trying to solve the issue by yourself.
    (Lobo deserves a monument).
  • Then, if you aren't still able to solve your issue, feel free to ask for help in that same board.
    FYI, most of the troubles are caused by wrong mod installations which lead to either missing data or undesired cross-effects between them. Always follow the mod installation instructions and keep a clean FS2 installation as explained in the sticky threads. Two additional links about how the game handles game data:
  • If you think that you've discovered a bug, mantis it.
    Provide as much info as you can, and try to narrow it down. A lonely "FS2 doesn't work" is not a good report.

Whoever Hanlon was: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Albert Einstein: Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

Dell Dimension 9200 - Vista 32-bit Ultimate
Core 2 Quad Q6600 @2.4GHz - RAM 2 GB DDR2
nvidia 8800 GTX - Integrated Sigmatel Audio

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
I was basically thinking of a list that would be something like this

3.6.9 New Features

3.6.10 New Features

3.7 New Features

Under each heading would be the date it was added and a link to the feature's entry in the wiki. You wouldn't filter it so much as just look at the 3.6.10 and 3.7 list and see what has been added since you last looked.

Although if someone has an idea for how to make a fully featured filtering system I'm all for it.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline ARSPR

  • Preys On Mantis
  • 29
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
What do you think of this scheme:

  • SCP Additions. It would contain a posting guide and a HUGE WARNING to make all the people follow them. It would have two subpages:
    • Categorized feature list as explained before (brief description, addition date and build, links to in-depth explanation pages and usage tips).
    • Date posted list. It would have just links to the entries in the previous list.
  • Did you know ...? as explained before

This system needs that all the people are quite clean and careful when posting. Every feature has to be posted twice (in categorized and dated), although only explained once (in categorized). But I can't think of another way...
IF YOU HAVE TROUBLES WITH FS2:
  • Please, please, please, READ and UNDERSTAND the sticky threads in FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support board.
    A lot of people are willing to help you, but, as anyone can understand, seeing the very same "issues" repeated again and again can become quite depressing. Please, spend a bit of time trying to solve the issue by yourself.
    (Lobo deserves a monument).
  • Then, if you aren't still able to solve your issue, feel free to ask for help in that same board.
    FYI, most of the troubles are caused by wrong mod installations which lead to either missing data or undesired cross-effects between them. Always follow the mod installation instructions and keep a clean FS2 installation as explained in the sticky threads. Two additional links about how the game handles game data:
  • If you think that you've discovered a bug, mantis it.
    Provide as much info as you can, and try to narrow it down. A lonely "FS2 doesn't work" is not a good report.

Whoever Hanlon was: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Albert Einstein: Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

Dell Dimension 9200 - Vista 32-bit Ultimate
Core 2 Quad Q6600 @2.4GHz - RAM 2 GB DDR2
nvidia 8800 GTX - Integrated Sigmatel Audio

 

Offline ARSPR

  • Preys On Mantis
  • 29
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
Well the section is more or less outlined. I haven't put a link in Wiki yet. Here you have the access:
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/SCP_Additions

Before I go further I would like to have:
  • Opinions about the list structures.
  • Doubts you have.
  • EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. What do you think about the posting rules?
  • A very important question. IIRC all stable branch features are also available in HEAD builds. I've built the list structure and rules with this supposition in mind. Could any coder confirm or deny it?
IF YOU HAVE TROUBLES WITH FS2:
  • Please, please, please, READ and UNDERSTAND the sticky threads in FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support board.
    A lot of people are willing to help you, but, as anyone can understand, seeing the very same "issues" repeated again and again can become quite depressing. Please, spend a bit of time trying to solve the issue by yourself.
    (Lobo deserves a monument).
  • Then, if you aren't still able to solve your issue, feel free to ask for help in that same board.
    FYI, most of the troubles are caused by wrong mod installations which lead to either missing data or undesired cross-effects between them. Always follow the mod installation instructions and keep a clean FS2 installation as explained in the sticky threads. Two additional links about how the game handles game data:
  • If you think that you've discovered a bug, mantis it.
    Provide as much info as you can, and try to narrow it down. A lonely "FS2 doesn't work" is not a good report.

Whoever Hanlon was: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Albert Einstein: Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

Dell Dimension 9200 - Vista 32-bit Ultimate
Core 2 Quad Q6600 @2.4GHz - RAM 2 GB DDR2
nvidia 8800 GTX - Integrated Sigmatel Audio

 

Offline ARSPR

  • Preys On Mantis
  • 29
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
 :wtf: :hopping:

 :mad:

 :eek2: :nervous: :shaking:

 :confused: :confused: :confused:

HEY, BOYS, PLEASE TAKE A LOOK AT THIS WIKI SECTION AND HELP ME BUILDING IT!!!.

Sorry about the capital letters but I feel this section is just critical. Let's start it ...  :yes: :yes:

OTOH, I feel the very first structure I designed was hugely complicated to follow (two lists, posting twice, cross links ...  :no: :no:). So I've designed a second approach with just one simple list.

You can look at them both in the previous link.

Please tell me what do you think about EVERYTHING:
  • Which kind of structure do yo prefer.
  • What do you think about posting rules?
  • What do you think about the proposed categories?
  • What do you think about ALL in general?
  • ...

Quote
A very important question. IIRC all stable branch features are also available in HEAD builds. I've built the list structure and rules with this supposition in mind. Could any coder confirm or deny it?
Please, I need an answer...


Any help is welcomed.
Thanks.
IF YOU HAVE TROUBLES WITH FS2:
  • Please, please, please, READ and UNDERSTAND the sticky threads in FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support board.
    A lot of people are willing to help you, but, as anyone can understand, seeing the very same "issues" repeated again and again can become quite depressing. Please, spend a bit of time trying to solve the issue by yourself.
    (Lobo deserves a monument).
  • Then, if you aren't still able to solve your issue, feel free to ask for help in that same board.
    FYI, most of the troubles are caused by wrong mod installations which lead to either missing data or undesired cross-effects between them. Always follow the mod installation instructions and keep a clean FS2 installation as explained in the sticky threads. Two additional links about how the game handles game data:
  • If you think that you've discovered a bug, mantis it.
    Provide as much info as you can, and try to narrow it down. A lonely "FS2 doesn't work" is not a good report.

Whoever Hanlon was: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Albert Einstein: Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

Dell Dimension 9200 - Vista 32-bit Ultimate
Core 2 Quad Q6600 @2.4GHz - RAM 2 GB DDR2
nvidia 8800 GTX - Integrated Sigmatel Audio

 
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
This is a pretty quiet forum. I don't know very much about SCP and I'm no programmer, but you would probably get more of a response from PMing the coders or posting this in the actual FSO forum.

Quote
Sorry about the capital letters but I feel this section is just critical. Let's start it ...

Don't mean to dissapoint, but there is a lot of programming reference, SEXP reference, and so on in the Wiki, and I don't think many people read it. You have a lot of enthusiasm, however, which is always good. I'm getting dizzy just reading all the material you've typed up for the page.

For what it's worth, I prefer the second structure. A complicated format tends to scare people away on FSWiki. Also, I think having posting rules is unnecessary. Everything else looks fine; the proposed categories are pretty thorough.

 

Offline ARSPR

  • Preys On Mantis
  • 29
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
Thanks Mustang :yes: :yes:

This is a pretty quiet forum. I don't know very much about SCP and I'm no programmer, but you would probably get more of a response from PMing the coders or posting this in the actual FSO forum.
I'll wait a little before doing this. It seems quite intrusive or even unpolite ...

Quote
Don't mean to dissapoint, but there is a lot of programming reference, SEXP reference, and so on in the Wiki, and I don't think many people read it. You have a lot of enthusiasm, however, which is always good. I'm getting dizzy just reading all the material you've typed up for the page.
Because of this, I claim about brief posting and links. Repeating a lot of info is just stupid.

Also, when the structure is decided, I'll try to post the most outstanding already added in fsopen.

The real usefulness of this Wiki page is having a place where coders can easily maintain a log of the new features they add in the future. In this way, modders or advanced users could keep a track about what has been added since the last time they took a look.  But mending the past is quite a hero task...

(Also, if you want to dig about unknown features fsopen has, you still can do it. But it is much harder and it's just a secondary goal).

Quote
Also, I think having posting rules is unnecessary.
I don't agree because the potential CHAOS, but if the majority of people think like you I'll delete them.
IF YOU HAVE TROUBLES WITH FS2:
  • Please, please, please, READ and UNDERSTAND the sticky threads in FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support board.
    A lot of people are willing to help you, but, as anyone can understand, seeing the very same "issues" repeated again and again can become quite depressing. Please, spend a bit of time trying to solve the issue by yourself.
    (Lobo deserves a monument).
  • Then, if you aren't still able to solve your issue, feel free to ask for help in that same board.
    FYI, most of the troubles are caused by wrong mod installations which lead to either missing data or undesired cross-effects between them. Always follow the mod installation instructions and keep a clean FS2 installation as explained in the sticky threads. Two additional links about how the game handles game data:
  • If you think that you've discovered a bug, mantis it.
    Provide as much info as you can, and try to narrow it down. A lonely "FS2 doesn't work" is not a good report.

Whoever Hanlon was: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Albert Einstein: Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

Dell Dimension 9200 - Vista 32-bit Ultimate
Core 2 Quad Q6600 @2.4GHz - RAM 2 GB DDR2
nvidia 8800 GTX - Integrated Sigmatel Audio

 

Offline Goober5000

  • HLP Loremaster
  • 214
    • Goober5000 Productions
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
I would say just go ahead and do it.  Much as I'd like to review your template, I really don't have the time.  If I had a time machine it would be another matter. :D As long as it's constructive and not destructive, I'm fine with it.  I think you could say the same for any of the coders (with the exception of taylor, as I'm not convinced he doesn't have a time machine already).

The only suggestion I have (and it's pretty general) is don't have separate listings by category and date.  Pick one (I recommend category) and forget the other.  If it's going to be hard keeping one page current, it'll be impossible keeping both current.

 

Offline Turey

  • Installer dude
  • 211
  • The diminutive form of Turambar.
    • FreeSpace Open Installer Homepage
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
If I had a time machine it would be another matter. :D

Oh, and I suppose the Flux Capacitor on that Apollo is just for decoration, hmmm?
Creator of the FreeSpace Open Installer.
"Calm. The ****. Down." -Taristin
why would an SCP error be considered as news? :wtf: *smacks Cobra*It's a feature.

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
You should have seen what it did to the Forum clock on the old Forums ;)

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
Use that thing to bring back nice Taristin... Oh, and Dark while you're at it.

 

Offline Mars

  • I have no originality
  • 211
  • Attempting unreasonable levels of reasonable
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
Whatever happened to Raa / Taristin / Snipes?

 

Offline Hades

  • FINISHING MODELS IS OVERRATED
  • 212
  • i wonder when my polycounts will exceed my iq
    • Skype
    • Steam
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
And Dabrain.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline ARSPR

  • Preys On Mantis
  • 29
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
Well I've made it official. You can see the link in the main wiki page (or you can use the link I gave you before). At the end I've used the date sorted only list.
IF YOU HAVE TROUBLES WITH FS2:
  • Please, please, please, READ and UNDERSTAND the sticky threads in FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support board.
    A lot of people are willing to help you, but, as anyone can understand, seeing the very same "issues" repeated again and again can become quite depressing. Please, spend a bit of time trying to solve the issue by yourself.
    (Lobo deserves a monument).
  • Then, if you aren't still able to solve your issue, feel free to ask for help in that same board.
    FYI, most of the troubles are caused by wrong mod installations which lead to either missing data or undesired cross-effects between them. Always follow the mod installation instructions and keep a clean FS2 installation as explained in the sticky threads. Two additional links about how the game handles game data:
  • If you think that you've discovered a bug, mantis it.
    Provide as much info as you can, and try to narrow it down. A lonely "FS2 doesn't work" is not a good report.

Whoever Hanlon was: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Albert Einstein: Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

Dell Dimension 9200 - Vista 32-bit Ultimate
Core 2 Quad Q6600 @2.4GHz - RAM 2 GB DDR2
nvidia 8800 GTX - Integrated Sigmatel Audio

 

Offline ARSPR

  • Preys On Mantis
  • 29
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
In an effort to simplify the posting and because the wiki section has been started long after 3.6.9. has been present, I've merged 3.6.9. and former builds.

I think nowadays, no one is running 3.6.7 and wants to learn what's new between 3.6.7. and 3.6.9.  :wtf:
IF YOU HAVE TROUBLES WITH FS2:
  • Please, please, please, READ and UNDERSTAND the sticky threads in FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support board.
    A lot of people are willing to help you, but, as anyone can understand, seeing the very same "issues" repeated again and again can become quite depressing. Please, spend a bit of time trying to solve the issue by yourself.
    (Lobo deserves a monument).
  • Then, if you aren't still able to solve your issue, feel free to ask for help in that same board.
    FYI, most of the troubles are caused by wrong mod installations which lead to either missing data or undesired cross-effects between them. Always follow the mod installation instructions and keep a clean FS2 installation as explained in the sticky threads. Two additional links about how the game handles game data:
  • If you think that you've discovered a bug, mantis it.
    Provide as much info as you can, and try to narrow it down. A lonely "FS2 doesn't work" is not a good report.

Whoever Hanlon was: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Albert Einstein: Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

Dell Dimension 9200 - Vista 32-bit Ultimate
Core 2 Quad Q6600 @2.4GHz - RAM 2 GB DDR2
nvidia 8800 GTX - Integrated Sigmatel Audio

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: Making a request official (or as official as I can make it)
I think nowadays, no one is running 3.6.7 and wants to learn what's new between 3.6.7. and 3.6.9.  :wtf:

And if I wanted to know, I would kick your ass.

Or attempt to at least. I suck at physical fighting.