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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Aardwolf on November 22, 2009, 06:23:47 pm
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You know, the Myrmidon was a joint Terran/Vasudan development.
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No wonder it sucks.
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The Mrym does what it's supposed to, and does it well with a good pilot.
Also most versatile for secondaries, bar bombers.
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If you could put the Mekhu HL-7 on the Myrm, I'd fly it all the time.
And with Balors, the Myrm is teh sex, really.
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The Mrym does what it's supposed to, and does it well with a good pilot.
Also most versatile for secondaries, bar bombers.
I don't mind the Myrm, but it seems a bit odd that it can't carry the harpoon like it's predecessor, the Uly, can.
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Yes Myrms *cough*suckrule*cough*
Anyway great wallpapers so far, keep it up peeps :D
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The Myrm would take the place of EVERYTHING if it could carry the Harpoon for me.
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The Mrym does what it's supposed to, and does it well with a good pilot.
Also most versatile for secondaries, bar bombers.
No Harpoons = failure. Every fighter should carry them. A fighter with no Harpoons fails at being a fighter.
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Myrm can carry Helios :D
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i prefer Rockeye anyway (missile spammer!!!!!), still dont like the myr though
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Myr is meant to have the next-gen harpoon. :nervous:
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And when I said most versatile for secondaries, I meant that it had three banks so you could have three different kinds of missiles, which only bombers can do otherwise.
Helios is awesome on a Myrm though :P
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Well, its not versatile if has three banks but none of them can carry "standard" equipment even...
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It can carry hornets, harpoons, tempests and rockeyes, all of which are "standard," as well as just about any non-"standard" secondary you could name. Not carrying a single type of missile does not destroy its versatility. That said, I still wish it carried Harpoons.
And the three banks are what MAKE it versatile, the ability to choose from three different secondaries in mission.
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It can carry hornets, harpoons, tempests and rockeyes, all of which are "standard," as well as just about any non-"standard" secondary you could name. Not carrying a single type of missile does not destroy its versatility.
Uhm...no.
You mean Tornado right?
It still has ass-tiny banks though, unlike bombers, who have **** massive ones.
EDIT: DAMN this is off topoc.
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Yes, I did mean Tornado, sorry about that.
And it has tiny banks because it's a fighter. The Loki has two banks the size of the Myrm's first two, but the Myrm has a third.
It also has six gun mounts, which helps offset the small secondary banks.
Off-topic is fun :P
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Actually, the Loki has one bank the size of the Myrm's first one. XD
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Hmph, and people still call the Loki better. :doubt:
Will always be my favorite fighter though. The overclocking is nice on it.
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The Loki is a lot more maneuverable than the Myrm.
Missiles aren't everything.
In fact, in FFA dogfight I rarely see missiles connecting at all, excluding the odd tempest barrage.
EDIT: thanks to whoever split and moved :D
EDIT2: That'd be Fury.
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i agree, if it ould fit the mekhu and harpoons, i would fly it on every mission i could. it would be t3h sexah!
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However, the Myrm has the guns to back up said missiles, and can carry 320 Tempests for a FFA dogfight. :P
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Always believed that a dev. mistook Harpoon for Helios in the table. Would make more sense.
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Mekhus would be nice, Avengers + Flails would be even better. Still, at least the Myrmidon has enough cannon energy to support a quad bank of Prometheus S comfortably, unlike the Tauret. I don't really think Harpoon compatibility matters all that much... Tornados aren't bad at all, even though they don't tend to last as long. And the ability to have a midsized bank of tornados, enough Tempests to speed up your short-range kills and enough Trebuchets to take out the beam of a Lilith can be quite nice.
Myrmidon and Loki don't really compete against one another - if you can't make up your mind the Perseus is probably what you're looking for since it's a solid if slightly boring compromise.
The Loki lets you survive missions that would be lethal in anything else thanks to great flying characteristics and reasonable toughness/target profile; it pays for this with low sustainable firepower. The Myrmidon is great at killing things quickly before they shred your escort list (good combination of speed and firepower, with flexibility to boot) but it's not survivable at all because neither shields nor profile nor agility stand out.
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Eh, IMO, the Tornadoes fill the Harpoon void. And who doesn't love the primaries on that baby? ;)
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I don't mind the Myrm, but it seems a bit odd that it can't carry the [EDIT]Tornado[EDIT/] like it's predecessor, the Uly, can.
Im pretty sure the Uly you fly in FS2 was retrofitted to have higher stats then previously after the Tornado was developed, thus making it compatible with majority of weapons, as weapon tech did evolve significantly over the previous 32 years. The Myrm however was not and was developed before the Tornado. My theory behind is is because the Myrm was already compatible with majority of weapons anyway, thus retrofitting it with new missile banks for 1 additional type of missile would be a waste of resources to the GTVA
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@aurora_energy:
Um, Myrm can carry Tornadoes, it can't use Harpoons, so your little edit is
WRONG
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GO LOKI!
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I like Myrmidon for it's number of secondary and primary guns, because it allows me to prepare it for almost anything.
I'm ussualy using Maxims Morningstars on 2-gun bank, Kaysers on 4-gun one (I tend to make every shot count, so they're excellent for this), Tempests on first secondary bank, Trebs on the second and Helioses on third. It allows me to attack and destroy capships and fighters alike, as well as hunt bombers and bombs from long range. If properly handled, Myrmidon is the real all-around fighter.
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:wtf:
Myrmidons can't carry Maxims. That said, I love it for the same reasons you stated.
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Myrmidons can't carry Maxims. That said, I love it for the same reasons you stated.
Correct, it most likely applied to either other fighter from some mod, it was basically Myrmidon with Maxims (or whatever succesor featured in this mod) and a couple of other upgrades (GTF Falcon from FOW: COTS?), or a Myrmidon with added new weapons, most notably from ITDOH (it wasn't Maxim, but some EMP device. It was still good anyway).
I'm using Morningstars or Akhetons on standard Myrmidon, which are enough to compensate for lack of Maxim.
Most of the time, Trebs are doing Maxim's work anyway, unless you're cut from support.
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However, the Myrm has the guns to back up said missiles, and can carry 320 Tempests for a FFA dogfight. :P
You're usually dead before you get to fire off 80, especially if you're in a myrm. The people in Lokis, Thoths, Persei, and other light fighters will fly circles around you. That's what happens to me when I take a heavy to a FFA.
Unless you totally outclass everyone else, in which case it hardly matters anymore.
In campaigns though, the Myrm is much better than the Loki. The Loki is specialized. The Myrm's a jack of all trades, master of none. (It does everything, it can even bomb, but it's never the best at what it does). I guess you could call that versatile...I just call it a tradeoff. It'd good at nothing but being decent at everything.
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Well, I can and do take it for FFA fights, and generally do well since I can spam three different kinds of missiles at people until they asplode. ;)
In a TvT fight, this is a nice fighter since it can counter just about anything without having to use a different ship for it.
That said, I can't really qualify my piloting ability, since almost every time I play, QD has been there (although I did manage to outlive him once!)
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You know, the Myrmidon was a joint Terran/Vasudan development.
So you're saying that the fact they were using Serapis as their default anti-fighter craft during FS2 was a fit of madness, and we should have seen Vasudan units flying Myrmidons?
That...actually helps a lot.
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Well, you have to trade off something for versatility. It's hard to deny that the Myrmidon is very versatile even if it's not the best at dogfighting (or any one thing).
I personally like how effective it is in the campaign (even if Helios is never available with the Myrmidon lol). The 4-gun bank isn't placed very nicely but does make for a good Prometheus S slot. The extra range of the Prom S is lovely, too bad it's completely nerfed in multi (I guess 1500m range is a bit overwhelming).
Honestly, the loss of the Harpoon is only an issue because you don't have the Tornado yet in the campaign. If both the Tornado and Harpoon were available, I'd take the Tornado (and fire in single shot if I need more ammo).
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You know, the Myrmidon was a joint Terran/Vasudan development.
So you're saying that the fact they were using Serapis as their default anti-fighter craft during FS2 was a fit of madness, and we should have seen Vasudan units flying Myrmidons?
That...actually helps a lot.
Oddly enough, the Ulysses was supposedly a joint venture. We never see Vasudans flying that; although in that time period they have the Thoth.
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I think it's easier to make a case for the Serapis as an anti-fighter craft than for the Myrmidon - the Serapis' handling is the best in the entire GTVA while the Myrmidon's is the clumsiest fighter that doesn't have a 'heavy' or 'assault' in its type. The Myrmidon is horribly outclassed by its supposed predecessor in a dogfight, the Serapis is merely unforgiving and flown badly by the AI. However, if we go by AI performance the GTVA should have abandoned fighters entirely - it usually does better in bombers wielding fighter suppression missiles.
If anything, I agree that it's strange the Vasudans never fly the Ulysses given that's supposed to be a joint venture - they really could use a craft that handles well while still having adequate shielding. Terrans have lots of options there (Ulysses, Loki, Perseus, even the old Apollo). As such, the need of the Serapis is dubious... the Vasudans already had enough light fighters that are awesome until they suddenly explode for no apparent reason. While the Serapis stands out among Vasudan fighters for its ability to carry Maxims and anti-fighter primaries at the same time, the Ulysses can do that too.
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Maybe it is just me but it seems like everything that is a joint venture is only ever seen used by the Terrans
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The Myrmidon is horribly outclassed by its supposed predecessor in a dogfight
The Myrmidon is outclassed by its predecessor's predecessor in a dogfight. An Apollo could easily outfly a Myrmidon in a dogfight, and Avengers and Prometheus are a match for anything the Myrmidon can equip. The Perseus is the real GTVA space superiority fighter, as it retains the do-anything versatility of the original Apollo much more than the Ulysses or the Myrmidon.
Also, increase the Serapis' shields to 370 (like in TPI) and it goes from awful to awesome.
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The Perseus is the real GTVA space superiority fighter, as it retains the do-anything versatility of the original Apollo much more than the Ulysses or the Myrmidon.
:wtf: The MYRM is the "do-anything" fighter, since it can mount three different kinds of secondaries, a small primary bank for anti subsystem or shield work, and still have four guns left over for a Prom S or Kayser.
It just doesn't do any one thing better than either. (Although I think the Myrm beats the Apollo straight up)
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The Perseus does pretty much everything better than the Myrmidon. It dogfights better, intercepts better, assaults better, it just outclasses the Myrmidon on every level. The Myrmidon does nothing well. Besides, if you really want to do anti-subsystem work, you can mount Trebuchets on the Perseus.
(Also if you mount three different kinds of secondaries, you won't have a decent amount of any of them. I usually load out the secondaries on a Myrmidon with nothing but Tempests.)
Also a Prom-S/Akheton or Kayser/Akheton setup would be extremely energy-intensive on difficulties above Easy. Subach/Akheton is the only way to go doing anti-subsystem on the Myrmidon.
As for the Apollo, it's weaker than the Myrmidon in shields and hull, but not a whole lot weaker, has an equal secondary capacity, is smaller and much harder to hit, has much better gun placement (I consider placement of guns just as important as quantity. The Myrmidon's four-shooter is in a horrible position), handles better and has a much tighter turn radius, and is faster on burners.
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Eh, I find the gun placements for the Myrmidon just fine. The key is to realize that they are different and thus have to be used differently (of course, in multi it's different but I'm referring to campaign). It's harder to land all four shots, but it's easy to land two. The shots tend to "bracket" the target and lands hits when the AI decides to go into the evade mode. Not that I have that much trouble landing shots even in Hard.
I'm also not sure why you think Prom-S uses too much power as even in Hard mode it's not that bad. Of course, my preferred method of dispatching targets is to use all six banks of Prom-S and blow away targets with a few shots (unless it's something like a dragon on full evade). Besides, if I'm taking out subsystems, I'll be using the Trebuchet first.
Having 6 banks is also rather useful against the supremely heavy bombers like Seraphim. You can't spend too much time trailing them with their turrets and being able to blow away the shields quickly is rather nice.
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Myrm can mount Trebs too, so I don't get why you mentioned the Perseus using them.
The Myrmidon can still intercept very nicely. A top speed of 75 m/s with normal engine energy is nothing to sneeze at, with the ships you usually get to pick from. Overclocking gets all the way up to 95 m/s. The Perseus has a grand total of 5 m/s at either on the Myrm, and 5 m/s on burners. However, the Myrm can bring the primary and secondary power to bear when it gets to bombers to shred them at a rate that the Perseus could never match.
That firepower also allows it to assault better than the Perseus with more hull and shields to boot. The ONLY thing the Persues has going for it is a measly 5 m/s and a slightly faster turn over the Mrym, since both can carry the same amount of ordinance. In face, since the Mrym can carry three different secondaries, it is a hell of a lot more effective than the Perseus at any mission that requires doing more than one thing.
Sure the maneuverability gives it an edge in dogfights, but that's the only real edge it has here, and dogfights are not the entirety of FreeSpace.
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The Myrmidon may have decent normal speed, but it's afterburner is dog slow.
Also you underestimate the Perseus' handling advantage. It is huge. The Myrmidon is a very clumsy craft compared to the Perseus. Its enormous target profile from every angle makes it extremely easy to hit. It can't carry the Harpoon, which is a huge demerit on a fighter (Hornets can't track fighters well, Tornadoes take up too much room, Trebuchets aren't designed for dogfighting, and Rockeyes are terrible in general). It is completely useless if you actually take three different secondaries because you won't have enough of the first two.
As for dogfighting, dogfighting is pretty much the one thing that you can count on doing in every single mission. Unless you're flying a heavy bomber or doing a stealth recon like Playing Judas, you will be dogfighting somebody at some point. The Perseus has an enormous edge at dogfighting, it gives up next to nothing in secondaries (the Myrmidon's three secondary banks might as well be two unless you enjoy spending half the mission under a support ship), it has more than enough firepower (especially with Kaysers--you don't need more than two Kaysers, and they drain too much energy for any craft except the Ares to handle four), it has nearly as much durability, and it can avoid being hit much more easily.
The Perseus is an amazingly well-balanced craft and is far more deserving of "space superiority" than the Myrmidon. I hated the Myrmidon when I first flew it, and I still hate it now. It's an ungainly, ill-conceived, ugly, bulky pig of a fighter. Its various disadvantages outweigh the value of another couple of gun points.
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:wtf:
It's burner is 135.
The Perseus is 140, that's only a 5 m/s difference.
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:wtf:
It's burner is 135.
The Perseus is 140, that's only a 5 m/s difference.
The Apollo also had 140...
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That's still not too much faster. 5 m/s does not a decisive advantage give.
That means that after 20 seconds of full burners, the Perseus and Apollo would only be 100 meters ahead at just shy of 3000 meters.
Like I said, hardly a decisive advantage.
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And that's only against the Perseus. The Apollo may have a 5m/s top afterburner advantage (that you need to accelerate to and don't stay at) but the standard top speed is below the Myrmidon's. Although as a jack of all trades, the Myrmidon is rather like the more weapons compatible successor of the Apollo.
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And that's only against the Perseus. The Apollo may have a 5m/s top afterburner advantage (that you need to accelerate to and don't stay at) but the standard top speed is below the Myrmidon's. Although as a jack of all trades, the Myrmidon is rather like the more weapons compatible successor of the Apollo.
The Apollo also had terrible secondary placement for Furys.
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But could mount acceptable anti-figther missiles.
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And that's only against the Perseus. The Apollo may have a 5m/s top afterburner advantage (that you need to accelerate to and don't stay at) but the standard top speed is below the Myrmidon's. Although as a jack of all trades, the Myrmidon is rather like the more weapons compatible successor of the Apollo.
The Apollo also had terrible secondary placement for Furys.
Nobody used Furies after the Interceptor arrived anyway, except on huge ships you could hit with Furies on an Apollo anyway, and then Hornets made them well and truly obsolete.
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Yeah, I've always used Interceptors and Hornets myself.
Incidentally, the wiki says the Valkyrie and the Apollo have the same shields and armour but I always find my survivability far higher in the Apollo. I wonder why that is.
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Don't know, says they're both 21 meters in length, that doesn't seem right though.
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Because the Apollo has 350 shields and 240 armor while the Valkyrie has 200 and 200.
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That sounds more right than the numbers in the freespace wiki. Can't take any hits or bumps in the Valkyrie.
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The sizes are wrong too, the Valkyrie is 16 meters in length.
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The Apollo's afterburner performance is really good - better even than that of the Perseus (same speed but lasts longer and recharges more quickly). More importantly, it's as agile as a Loki along the important axes and has a far better target profile than the Myrmidon. However, cruising speed is not the only problem... it rolls like a cow, and has lower weapon energy than modern Terran fighters (100 instead of the usual 150).
There's no real reason to fly it once the Perseus is available (they arguably retired it too soon), but I'm fairly sure that with equally skilled pilots it would win against the Myrmidon... with FS1- or FS2-era weaponry.
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Calling the Myrmidon a space superiority fighter just shows it in a bad light; its strengths lie elsewhere. When needing to protect something and my own survival is the lesser problem, I might not need better handling. It's still speedy enough to intercept/catch up to the ships I'm supposed to escort after finishing something off. Its firepower might make me prefer it over the Persues - not only does a quad bank have 1/3 more firepower than 2 linked 2-gun banks, it leaves me another bank to play around with advanced toys.
4 general purpose weapons + 2 Morning Stars are often good... the Morning Stars prevent bombers from locking on to our target, but we certainly wouldn't want an even split as they consume quite a bit of energy. Heck, even 4 Subachs (economy mode) + 2 Kaysers (linked fire for a little more oomph) or 2 Prometheus (single bank use for free shots) isn't bad.
Alternatively, it can function as a light assault fighter... again, good firepower and flexibility in armament, and while it's not ideal for tangling with space superiority fighters it's certainly not a helpless target. In this case, I would usually prefer an Erinyes if available though.
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I have trouble being effective in the Erinyes =(. It may have a lot of primary firepower, but in everything else it's not quite good enough to justify the compromises.
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Most FS2 fighters have the problem that their "overclocked engines" don't do ****...the Erinyes gets you 5 m/s extra. That's what I don't like about it.
As far as assault goes, the Myrmidon isn't that bad. It can carry Trebs and Tempests, my main assault weapons. The 95 m/s over clocked speed is nice when you have to cover distance.
That said, I rarely ever choose the Myrmidon over any other fighter. That just goes with my playing style (I like high maneuverability and fast fighters).
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needs more guns though... well, anything with more guns is always a plus, i'm not in to fast fighters because i'm more of the support role, heavy and slow are my best points. i usually try to claim attention from the battlefield and i put trust in my companions that they'll shoot the idiot behind me... but i will fight in faster/les armed ships if i feel like it, or crave the good old days of areofighters assault (a game for the n64)
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The speed of the Helios is slightly higher if it is fired from a ship on afterburners, right?
Wouldn't that make the Myrmidon the ideal heavy strike bomber?
My preference has always been a missile boat like the Herc II or the Ares. Until I got creamed multiple times by QuantumDelta in multi, my accuracy with the primaries was more akin to the A-Team firing. It still is to some extent.
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Oh, definitely... 4 Helios (Myrmidon loadout) make a very slightly bigger boom than 13 Cyclops (full Medusa loadout) and can be lost far more quickly. So the Myrmidon is a valid choice if the Ursa is too lardy and you can justify using an almost certainly unintentional feature.
Regarding the Erinyes: While its overclocked cruising speed is rubbish, it makes up for it with good afterburners. Top speed of 130 isn't impressive, but endurance and recharge rate are very solid... unlike those of the Myrmidon (or even otherwise fast craft like the Loki and Perseus). Still not terribly fast, but better than it may seem at first.
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, speed comparisons between fighters change depending on the level you play - on low levels both overclock speed and recharge rate lose importance to afterburner top speed, since you can use them almost constantly if you max out energy to engines.
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At which point the Myrm is still faster than the Erinyes by that same 5 m/s.
needs more guns though...
Six isn't enough for you? :wtf:
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Six isn't enough for you? :wtf:
He obviously needs the fan-made Shai (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/VEB_Shai#Armaments) then. :p
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Oh, definitely... 4 Helios (Myrmidon loadout) make a very slightly bigger boom than 13 Cyclops (full Medusa loadout) and can be lost far more quickly. So the Myrmidon is a valid choice if the Ursa is too lardy and you can justify using an almost certainly unintentional feature.
Regarding the Erinyes: While its overclocked cruising speed is rubbish, it makes up for it with good afterburners. Top speed of 130 isn't impressive, but endurance and recharge rate are very solid... unlike those of the Myrmidon (or even otherwise fast craft like the Loki and Perseus). Still not terribly fast, but better than it may seem at first.
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, speed comparisons between fighters change depending on the level you play - on low levels both overclock speed and recharge rate lose importance to afterburner top speed, since you can use them almost constantly if you max out energy to engines.
I consider the Myrmidon having Helios a tabling mistake and I would strongly discourage anyone from making a mission that allows such a thing to happen. It's completely absurd (just look at the size of a Helios relative to a Myrmidon) and it breaks the traditional role of bombers and bombs.
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But it can happen, and shouldn't be discounted because you think it was a mistake.
As such, the Myrm becomes one of the most effective bombers out there.
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I find the whole Myrmidon having Helios thing utterly absurd.
If the GTVA can make Helios-carrying fighters than every bomber in the fleet becomes useless.
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Especially when it can carry Helios but not Cyclops. (btw, wasn't there a size comparison somewhere showing how a Helios is almost the size of the Myrmidon?). And if they really had Helios-capable Myrmidons, then when the going got tough in the campaign, they should have loaded up every Myrmidon with Helios and sent them at whatever needed to be blown up. I wonder how difficult Bearbaiting would have been with a Myrmidon that could run instead. Have to reload more, but being able to get out of dodge quicker is nice. Plus one rack of EMP Advanced missiles would keep the flak guns from being so annoying.
Anyway, recharge rates for the Erinyes is just about equal to the Myrmidon's. The burners last for about 1.5 seconds longer but the trade off is a much lower cruising speed and a little lower burner speed. Overall, I'd still take the Myrmidon.
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I don't remember the name, but there was some campaign that had you flying a Myrmidon for the SOC in most of its missions. It had Helioses only in the last bank (which doesn't look nearly as ridiculous), and it used scramble to prevent you from changing it.
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This was present some of ITODH chapters (3rd for sure), prehaps it's the one you mean.
It was quite usefull when fighting large warships.
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Especially when it can carry Helios but not Cyclops. (btw, wasn't there a size comparison somewhere showing how a Helios is almost the size of the Myrmidon?). And if they really had Helios-capable Myrmidons, then when the going got tough in the campaign, they should have loaded up every Myrmidon with Helios and sent them at whatever needed to be blown up. I wonder how difficult Bearbaiting would have been with a Myrmidon that could run instead. Have to reload more, but being able to get out of dodge quicker is nice. Plus one rack of EMP Advanced missiles would keep the flak guns from being so annoying.
Anyway, recharge rates for the Erinyes is just about equal to the Myrmidon's. The burners last for about 1.5 seconds longer but the trade off is a much lower cruising speed and a little lower burner speed. Overall, I'd still take the Myrmidon.
For assault missions, the Ares is king. Sit back a comfortable distance for the enemy. Target enemy fighter. Apply Trebuchet directly to the enemy fighter. Repeat as necessary. :p
And it carries Maxims to defang anything smaller than a Sathanas. Sure it handles like a potato, but when you can strike enemies several kilometers away, who cares?
Subach/Maxim/Trebuchet Ares is almost a game-breaker in single player.
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Well, for assault you do need a large secondary payload (I'd probably prefer the Sekhmet though). The trebuchut and maxim cannons are rather OP as you say.
I find that if there's any significant number of Nephilim or Seraphim bomber wings, the inability for a pair of Trebuchets to kill them means that I'd end up more effective with the Myrmidon (which can also carry trebuchets) simply because I'd be able to get to them quicker (as well as being able to chase down bombs). Being able to handle in a dogfight against a fighter screen is nice too.
Overall the Myrmidon is capable in almost any role even if it's not the best (unless you allow it the Helios whereupon it becomes the best strike bomber). In a single-player game where sheer primary firepower is often very important, having a quad bank is really nice. Besides, if the target is something you need to spray to hit, more bolts is better than slightly better gun positioning. It's not like it's hard to aim at the edge of the lead indicator rather than the center.
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Axem also used the Helios-carrying Myrmidons in his Just Another Day mod series.
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You're given Helios-Myrms in many ITDOH missions.
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Especially when it can carry Helios but not Cyclops. (btw, wasn't there a size comparison somewhere showing how a Helios is almost the size of the Myrmidon?).
I do remember this and I also remember being one of the people to mention it.
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The bomb is physically huge, looking funny coming from a GTF Myrmidon and also making it easy to visually target and destroy.
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You're given Helios-Myrms in many ITDOH missions.
IDOH has a completely ridiculous storyline and plot anyway. Not that that's a bad thing. :P
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The best ship in Freespace 2, no doubt, is the Perseus.
A good speed, with balanced weaponry, and undoubtedly has a cool look.
It's simply overkill.
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The best ship in Freespace 2, no doubt, is the Perseus.
A good speed, with balanced weaponry, and undoubtedly has a cool look.
It's simply overkill.
Uh, yeah. Your opinion. The Perseus sucks.
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The Perseus is fine. The Herc 2 is better... ;)
As has been said earlier, the Myrmidon is really a fighter that is better suited for campaigns other than the main FS2 campaign. What might have been called by players as a second-rate ship in the main campaign is an extraordinary machine in BP - namely because of the Balor. In my opinion, the Myrm is a prime example of a good template for a fighter, but the template lacks an adequate filling. This is actually true of any fighter, really, and this principle sticks out like a sore thumb in several campaigns, namely in the case of my beloved Herc 2 in Transcend. Without the right tools, the Herc is in for some trouble...
I actually think the Myrm would be better with a single six-cannon primary bank that would work well with light, rapid-fire guns. Load up with Subachs/Mekhus and go for it! This, unfortunately, would reduce the overall functionality of the fighter quite a bit, though...
The capacity for the Helios is sort of odd... well, very odd. But, given the description and the configuration of the fighter, giving the Myrmidon bombs would be a rather tasteful addition to the "flare" of a campaign... though you might want to give the fighter something more reasonable like the Cyclops. Doing that would work quite well for a story, I feel. :nod:
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I actually really love the Mrym.
Sure, it's cannons are a bit off whack position wise, but I think what counts is that they're all grouped close together. All you need to know is that you should aim a few meters below the lead indicator for your target and you're set. However, if the cannons were far apart, then you'd really be in trouble. And the Myrm has six gun points, which is great. A subach only configuration is still a heavy hitter with that, and it only gets stronger if you switch things out. Sure, you can't get the maxim, but I honestly don't think you'd need the maxim that much on a Myrm.
The secondary capability for the Myrm is a bit misleading, I think. I forget if it can mount Stilettos or not, but with 3 slots, it's not hard to plop Stilettos into a slot and then be ready to take out a few turrets on any cap ships (unless, of course, the Myrm can't mount Stilettos :p). And you'd still have two slots leftover for Tornadoes or whatever.
Though granted, it easily isn't the best ship in the game. You all need to understand, though, that you need to have some kind of space-superiority standard fighter, and it can't be something A1supar state of the art, or otherwise you'll be limited by cost. The Myrm probably fulfills the standard fighter role admirably, yet we never get to see the cost benefits of having a fleet of Myrms as opposed to a fleet of Herc IIs or anything.
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/me glances at the thread title.
Um, right.
I'm not so sure about the Myrmidon's cannon's being off-position. I actually find them to be much better at hitting things than the gunpoints of most other ships. In fact, the placement of its six guns are also part of the reason why I may actually choose it over the Herc II in some missions.
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I really think exotic primary compatibility matters in fighters with a 4+2 gun layout. Fighters with symetrical banks gain 1/3 in firepower when firing from two banks equipped with general purpose weaponry. The Myrmidon will gain no firepower over just using its 4-gun bank. Loading the smaller bank up with Maxims for free shots against capital ships would usually be exellent, as it is the Myrmidon will have to use some other toy (I made a few suggestions in an earlier post).
The Myrmidon can't carry Stilettos but that's hardly an issue... usually Trebuchets do their jobs about as well.
The problem remains that the Myrmidon can be good in every role but the one it's supposed to fill. Heavy interceptor? Sure: it can deliver a lot of firepower to where it's needed reasonably quickly and is still agile enough to polish off assault fighter/bombers with primaries. Light assault fighter? Sure: it's flexibile enough in secondaries to pick off problematic turrets/escorts and then brings its above-average firepower to bear on midsize targets. Strike bomber? Sure: Best ship in the game for this if you're able and willing to load it up with Helios warheads even though you probably shouldn't.
But Space superiority? Each and every competitor will fly rings around it... this is not the craft to beat Ulysses, Thoths or Dragons at their own game.
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/me glances at the thread title.
I noticed that when this got threadsplit I became the OP, and thus had the power to rename the thread. Originally I gave it a much dumber name :p
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Always believed that a dev. mistook Harpoon for Helios in the table. Would make more sense.
If we believe that the Myrmidon using the Helios is absurd, we could, for a moment, assume that the Myrmidon can carry the Harpoon. Would that make it better?
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Only the Zeus and Ursa carry Harpoons, so compatibility with Harpoons on GTA bombers are nearly non-existant. If the Myrmidon was meant to use the Helios then why should it use the Harpoon?
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If you really think that the Myrmidon's supposed to use the Helios, then I have no comment. Or maybe I do, but that wasn't what I was arguing for, anyway.
What I'm saying is this: Myrmidon uses Harpoons. Myrmidon cannot use Helios. These assumptions happen in a hypothetical world.
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Even if possible errors in canon are obviously errors, they have to be taken as canon unless they can be proven to be errors by other canon sources. Sol having only 1 canonical jump node, for example (several references make it seem like there are multiple ones, but we've been told there is only one.)
So as much as I'd LOVE to go into my tables and replace the word Helios with Harpoon in the Myrmidon entry, I simply can't.
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If you really think that the Myrmidon's supposed to use the Helios, then I have no comment. Or maybe I do, but that wasn't what I was arguing for, anyway.
What I'm saying is this: Myrmidon uses Harpoons. Myrmidon cannot use Helios. These assumptions happen in a hypothetical world.
I don't really thing the Myrmidon is supposed to use a missile that spans twice the length of the entire ship, I was one of the first people to mention the out-of-whack proportions between the two. :doubt:
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Even if possible errors in canon are obviously errors, they have to be taken as canon unless they can be proven to be errors by other canon sources. Sol having only 1 canonical jump node, for example (several references make it seem like there are multiple ones, but we've been told there is only one.)
So as much as I'd LOVE to go into my tables and replace the word Helios with Harpoon in the Myrmidon entry, I simply can't.
I understand, which leads back to my original question.
Would that make it better?
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If you really think that the Myrmidon's supposed to use the Helios, then I have no comment. Or maybe I do, but that wasn't what I was arguing for, anyway.
If you really think they screwed up that badly in not giving it the Harpoon, you're crazy. Somebody would have noticed in beta. If the Helios was simply the odd one out in the table entry for stuff, sure, I could buy that it's a mistake, but it's not; they also delibrately did not give the Myrmidon the Harpoon, which is a much more glaring and serious error if there are any errors about, and once they went to fix that they would have noticed the Helios was in there too.
But they didn't go to fix that. Everything, therefore, is most likely as it should be.
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The problem remains that the Myrmidon can be good in every role but the one it's supposed to fill. Heavy interceptor? Sure: it can deliver a lot of firepower to where it's needed reasonably quickly and is still agile enough to polish off assault fighter/bombers with primaries. Light assault fighter? Sure: it's flexibile enough in secondaries to pick off problematic turrets/escorts and then brings its above-average firepower to bear on midsize targets. Strike bomber? Sure: Best ship in the game for this if you're able and willing to load it up with Helios warheads even though you probably shouldn't.
But Space superiority? Each and every competitor will fly rings around it... this is not the craft to beat Ulysses, Thoths or Dragons at their own game.
The thing is, the Apollo was the original "space superiority fighter," and Ulysses, Thoths, and Dragons could obviously all manage to fly rings around it. I'd place the three of them (maybe along with the Loki, although that could just as easily go in as an early Pegasus/Ptah) in their own class, whereas the Myrmidon is intended as a direct success of the Apollo; how well it manages this is a matter of opinion.
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Even if possible errors in canon are obviously errors, they have to be taken as canon unless they can be proven to be errors by other canon sources. Sol having only 1 canonical jump node, for example (several references make it seem like there are multiple ones, but we've been told there is only one.)
So as much as I'd LOVE to go into my tables and replace the word Helios with Harpoon in the Myrmidon entry, I simply can't.
What about the Bahka that has Helios listed in its primaries?
That has to be an error (from the fact that you fly a Helios-armed Bakha in bearbaiting).
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I found the Bakha/Helios in Bearbaiting ridiculous. The Helios to me ought to be reserved for heavy bombers, which would also be the logical choice for Juggernaut assaults. Therefore, I think the mission should have used the Sekhmet instead.
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I don't even know why the Bakha exists when the Sekhmet is there. The fact we're forced to use the Bakha in Bearbaiting strikes me as artificial difficulty if anything.
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I found the Bakha/Helios in Bearbaiting ridiculous. The Helios to me ought to be reserved for heavy bombers, which would also be the logical choice for Juggernaut assaults. Therefore, I think the mission should have used the Sekhmet instead.
The Sekhmet can carry three Helios torpedoes in each of its second and third banks, right?
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The Myrmidon carry Helios is not canon unless we accept the following
a) The GTVA's tech description for the Ares says it handles like a potato
b) The GTVA's tech description for the Terran gas miner says that a pilot's first thought is 'thank god I'm not flying that tub'
c) There is a space pirate ship
d) The Bakha can carry the Helios as a primary weapon
e) The Ravana is a cruiser
as canon.
You've got to use your brain when thinking about this sort of thing, the Myrmidon isn't even shown in any mission to have the Helios, and the option is never given to the player. The realism of Freespace is already very dodgy, there's no need to take it into a complete fantasy world.
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The Myrmidon carry Helios is not canon unless we accept the following
a) The GTVA's tech description for the Ares says it handles like a potato
b) The GTVA's tech description for the Terran gas miner says that a pilot's first thought is 'thank god I'm not flying that tub'
c) There is a space pirate ship
d) The Bakha can carry the Helios as a primary weapon
e) The Ravana is a cruiser
as canon.
You've got to use your brain when thinking about this sort of thing, the Myrmidon isn't even shown in any mission to have the Helios, and the option is never given to the player. The realism of Freespace is already very dodgy, there's no need to take it into a complete fantasy world.
a) The tech description is the canonical opinion of whoever wrote the tech description. In the Freespace universe this person might believe that no matter if it's true or not.
b) Same thing
c) Obvious Easter Egg, not used anywhere in game.
d) Not seen anywhere in game, why fix something that doesn't manifest as a visible bug?
e) Where does it say that?
The difference is you CAN use the Myrmidon with Helios in official multiplayer missions and so it's canon.
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The Myrmidon carry Helios is not canon unless we accept the following
a) The GTVA's tech description for the Ares says it handles like a potato
b) The GTVA's tech description for the Terran gas miner says that a pilot's first thought is 'thank god I'm not flying that tub'
c) There is a space pirate ship
d) The Bakha can carry the Helios as a primary weapon
e) The Ravana is a cruiser
as canon.
You've got to use your brain when thinking about this sort of thing, the Myrmidon isn't even shown in any mission to have the Helios, and the option is never given to the player. The realism of Freespace is already very dodgy, there's no need to take it into a complete fantasy world.
a) The tech description is the canonical opinion of whoever wrote the tech description. In the Freespace universe this person might believe that no matter if it's true or not.
b) Same thing
c) Obvious Easter Egg, not used anywhere in game.
d) Not seen anywhere in game, why fix something that doesn't manifest as a visible bug?
e) Where does it say that?
The difference is you CAN use the Myrmidon with Helios in official multiplayer missions and so it's canon.
OK so that is the way a professional employed to write technical descriptions would go about it, and is completely in tone with the other tech descriptions, right.
Myrmidon is not used with Helios anywhere in the game, allowing it in FRED is similar to placing a Volition Bravos in High Noon
Snipes calls the Nebiros a cruiser in Into the Lions' Den.
I'd say being able to use a bomb bigger than your ship is a great reason to say that either multiplayer missions are not canon, or that there has been a mistake in the tables.
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I think the Nebiros was originally meant to be a cruiser, I think Snipes would have had a far more "HOLY **** DODGE" reaction if it had been a Ravana then. That was something that always struck me as odd about that mission.
About the ships that can use the Helios. If you put the number of Helios they can carry on top of each other I bet more than the Myrm would end up smaller than their payload.
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IMO Helios is a mistake, but i think that Harpoons weren't meant to be available for Myrm pilots. Dunno it feels somehow wrong.
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I think the Nebiros was originally meant to be a cruiser, I think Snipes would have had a far more "HOLY **** DODGE" reaction if it had been a Ravana then. That was something that always struck me as odd about that mission.
About the ships that can use the Helios. If you put the number of Helios they can carry on top of each other I bet more than the Myrm would end up smaller than their payload.
But in a later mission the Nebiros is responsible for the deployment of enemy bombers (and I've been told that if you fail that mission it jumps in as well). And cruisers don't have fighterbays.
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IMO Helios is a mistake, but i think that Harpoons weren't meant to be available for Myrm pilots. Dunno it feels somehow wrong.
That's like saying AIM-54 Phoenixes feel wrong on an F-14 Tomcat, a missile specifically made for long-range interception, made for a fighter that's specifically (More or less) made for interception.
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IMO Helios is a mistake, but i think that Harpoons weren't meant to be available for Myrm pilots. Dunno it feels somehow wrong.
That's like saying AIM-54 Phoenixes feel wrong on an F-14 Tomcat, a missile specifically made for long-range interception, made for a fighter that's specifically (More or less) made for interception.
I kinda know what he means though, they just don't seem to fit in with the rest of the ships characteristics.
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Nonetheless, a fighter meant to do a little of everything, especially a fighter, shouldn't have anti-fighter missile incompatabilities. That simply shatters its ability as a fighter. If it's meant to intercept (That also means taking down fighters, not just bombers) it should have the firepower capable to effectively do so. The same applies for escort.
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I'm not sure the Harpoon is that important to the Myrmidon's abilities, though.
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Nonetheless, a fighter meant to do a little of everything, especially a fighter, shouldn't have anti-fighter missile incompatabilities. That simply shatters its ability as a fighter. If it's meant to intercept (That also means taking down fighters, not just bombers) it should have the firepower capable to effectively do so. The same applies for escort.
whats worse is that fighters slated as a superiority in FS2 spend most of their time in the game hunting fighters due to the dominance of fighters in game so denying any superiority fighter the harpoon which is supposed to be the standard dog fighting aspect lock missile is strange to say the least and ranks alongside denying bombers the use of the cyclops I know FS1 had the Athena was tagged as a bomber which was unable to carry any bombs but to be honest the Athena played more of an heavy assault role so in my mind was mislabeled
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I'm not sure the Harpoon is that important to the Myrmidon's abilities, though.
Space Superiority? If that's anything like Air Superiority then it SHOULD be able to use any and every anti-fighter missile in the GTVA's arsenal.
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Many people wonder how the Myrmidon is supposed to replace the Ulysses. But if you read the tech descriptions and think for for a while, it makes sense. The Ulysses has great manoeuvrability and speed, but it better suited for offensive missions. And in the Reconstruction period, between the Hades Rebellion and NTF Rebellion, we have 30 years of relative peace and lack of assault missions. The GTVA was in need of a fighter that would be more suited to this defensive style.
Besides, they needed a jack-of-all-trades. The Herc II packs a bigger punch, Valkyrie (later Perseus, but it only went into service at the end of the NTF rebellion) is a much better interceptor while the Ulysses can fly circles around its enemies. The problem here is that usually those fighters would have to cooperate in most operations. So a small depot raid would involve for example a wing of Hercs for the destruction and a wing of Ulysses for protection. This makes sense during war, but in peacetimes it's just not economical.
A wing of Myrmidons, on the other hands, can do this job on its own. It packs enough weaponry to be a threat even for light capships like cruisers or freighters, can handle itself better in a dogfight than the Herc and still has enough armour to survive long enough for the reinforcements to come should something unexpected happen. It was built so that it could respond to to any situation, at least in a limited fashion. That's why it has three banks, to allow for a bigger variety of secondaries. A true multirole fighter. And remember that Myrmidon entered service (possibly a long time) before the Perseus.
You could probably ask why not keep the old Apollos around if they were better at multiroling ? Well, those fighters were already considered old during the Great War. 30 years later, they were probably seen as relics. The maintenance cost of them plus all the refits so that modern systems could be installed on it would prolly cost more than a brand new Myrmidon.
And don't forget one more thing - the Myrm was created as a Terran-Vasudan fighter. This probably helped improve the relations between Terrans and Vasudans too.
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I'm not sure the Harpoon is that important to the Myrmidon's abilities, though.
Space Superiority? If that's anything like Air Superiority then it SHOULD be able to use any and every anti-fighter missile in the GTVA's arsenal.
It's not like air superiority, because air superiority is in real life, and the Myrmidon is in FreeSpace.
The Myrmidon carries Tempests, which are pretty much all one needs secondary-wise for dogfighting. I'm not convinced the Harpoon is actually necessary.
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Keep the skies free of hostiles, how's the simple meaning of an Air Superiority fighter that different from using Space Superiority to do the same thing in space, I'd rather see the Myrmidon with Harpoon compatability otherwise I see its use as a "Superiority" fighter as moot.
Sure I doubled my kill count on one playthrough using Tempests, but I only applied them when it made sense. That doesn't mean I'm trying to take down Dragons or Manticores or Astaroths when I could more effectively use a Prometheus S.
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That's all immaterial. The question is whether the Myrmidon needs the Harpoon to do its job and I'm really not sure it does. There's nothing in 'space superiority fighter' that says 'carries every missile out there'.
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If you really think that the Myrmidon's supposed to use the Helios, then I have no comment. Or maybe I do, but that wasn't what I was arguing for, anyway.
If you really think they screwed up that badly in not giving it the Harpoon, you're crazy. Somebody would have noticed in beta. If the Helios was simply the odd one out in the table entry for stuff, sure, I could buy that it's a mistake, but it's not; they also delibrately did not give the Myrmidon the Harpoon, which is a much more glaring and serious error if there are any errors about, and once they went to fix that they would have noticed the Helios was in there too.
But they didn't go to fix that. Everything, therefore, is most likely as it should be.
You're making the assumption that I said that the Myrmidon is supposed to be able to use Harpoons. I never said that. Several others have at least answered the question.
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That's all immaterial. The question is whether the Myrmidon needs the Harpoon to do its job and I'm really not sure it does. There's nothing in 'space superiority fighter' that says 'carries every missile out there'.
The Harpoon isn't just a missile, it is by far the most important missile for a superiority fighter. A real "air superiority fighter" is a fighter that can effectively engage other combat aircraft and enable uncontested control of airspace in the combat zone--essentially a fighter designed to destroy other fighters. Translated to FreeSpace, this means a ship that can quickly clear the skies of other small craft and dominate other fighters--the Harpoon is by far the best secondary weapon for this task.
The Myrmidon's lack of agility is a pretty big detriment to that role as well. One could possibly classify it as a multirole fighter, but it fails there too because one of the defining characteristics of a multirole fighter is the ability to carry weapons for as many purposes as possible. You don't want a multirole fighter that has a gaping hole in its selection of weaponry.
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If you think you can't use the Tornado or Tempest to quickly clear the skies (or space) of other small craft (or even cruisers), you aren't using them correctly. They both outclass the Harpoon. The former, because of massed damage and greater CM resistance (takes more for more missiles), the latter because of the small payload space needed for a ****tonne of them.
The Harpoon is just a missile. Lacking them does not make the Myrmidon a piece of ****.
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The Tornado does not have the accuracy or the ammo capacity to be useful for space superiorty, especially on a fighter like the Myrmidon which can carry only 16 (8 if you double-fire) sets of Tornadoes. The Myrmidon essentially has twice as much endurance with Harpoons than Tornadoes, which is a very big deal. The Tornado is an assault missile best paired with the Herc II or Ares. The Tempest's lack of homing and the Myrmidon's lack of agility work together to make it much less useful than the Harpoon against fighters like the Ulysses, Loki, Mara, and Dragon, plus its short range means the Myrmidon has to get into close combat with targets, which plays to more agile fighters' strengths.
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Erm, the Tornado has longer range and similar homing capability compared to the Harpoon. Its only flaw is that although the raw damage in single fire is equal to the Harpoon's double fire, the shield damage is lower and thus can't kill medium fighters in single mode. However, it makes up for that by being able to take down heavy fighters and light bombers which Harpoons are unable to even in double fire mode.
Furthermore, if this were a serious bout for space superiority, the range coupled with greater potential damage is more important. For instance, the MX-64 is very useful in multi despite the huge warhead and low damage because it has a great range advantage.
Besides, even in double fire, that's 8 kill-shots which isn't exactly nothing. It's double the amount of double fire Harpoons that Loki or Dragon fighters can carry and equal to the Ulysses' Harpoon capacity. All of which might not even be able to get a shot off in a head-to-head against a Tornado Myrmidon because of the range issue. Plus more damage from the Tornados too.
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That's all immaterial. The question is whether the Myrmidon needs the Harpoon to do its job and I'm really not sure it does. There's nothing in 'space superiority fighter' that says 'carries every missile out there'.
The Harpoon isn't just a missile, it is by far the most important missile for a superiority fighter. A real "air superiority fighter" is a fighter that can effectively engage other combat aircraft and enable uncontested control of airspace in the combat zone--essentially a fighter designed to destroy other fighters. Translated to FreeSpace, this means a ship that can quickly clear the skies of other small craft and dominate other fighters--the Harpoon is by far the best secondary weapon for this task.
I'm really not convinced the Harpoon would allow the Myrmidon to do any better in its existing role. Arguably its relative clumsiness is a weakness, but the Harpoon I'm not all that bothered by, especially as it makes it more interesting.
The Harpoon, like most aspect missiles, is kind of a silly thing and arguably unnecessary.
I don't think exchanging verbiage about it is really going to be productive, either.
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I think it just would have made a bad game to give the player an awesome space superiority fighter in the first mission...
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The Harpoon, like most aspect missiles, is kind of a silly thing and arguably unnecessary.
It's not unnecessary when you're like me and can't aim with Tempests for beans. :p
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Nor if you're in a fighter where a turning battle with many enemy fighters (which is inevitable if you're using Tempests) is often a losing proposition.
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Wouldn't call that inevitable.
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I wouldn't call it unnecessary.
Given the speed at which missiles fly, aspect seeking is rather important at longer ranges otherwise they'd be totally worthless and just miss completely.
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Am I the only one here who has no problem with the Myrm's turn rate? Seriously, people are *****ing about it being slow on the axes, but, once again, that isn't necessarily a ship-killer. That difference in turn rate works both ways. Sure, they'll get a shot at you, but then they end up behind you in the loop, and you get a shot at them too. The six gun mounts and heavier hull and shields work well to your advantage there.
And does anyone ever actually get into a turning Tempest battle with the AI? :confused: The Myrm is designed from an in-universe standpoint, not a meta influenced multiplayer standpoint.
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In-universe, the AI is so dumb that simply slowing down means you get free shots at them =(
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I like using twin Subachs and pretending i'm in the Defiant :)
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The Harpoon isn't just a missile, it is by far the most important missile for a superiority fighter.
Biggest overstatement of FreeSpace fanon there. I'm a crap pilot, but I don't need to use Harpoons to survive on a battlefield. Why do you want Harpoons on a ship with six guns anyway?
Am I the only one here who has no problem with the Myrm's turn rate?
You are not alone. The Myrmidon's turn rate is perfect in my books. It's just that little bit faster than the Herc II, and that makes a huge difference in the way I pilot it. With slower ships like the Herc II and Ares, I usually hang back and lob missiles all over the place. With the Myrmidon, I become Leeroy Jenkins.
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The Tornado can do things the Harpoon can't (1-salvo-kills of most craft, at longer range) and is still good enough in a dogfight. Its relative inefficiency against shields would be more annoying in craft that need to make every shot count because of a tiny loadout... but if those only have 1 bank it'll probably wield Tempests anyway. There are situations in which I miss the Harpoon, but they aren't common and I don't consider it a huge drawback.
I think Vip makes some very good points about the Myrmidon as an attempt to standardise fighters. The same characteristics make it attractive for special forces... sort if 'get in, blow up what we're supposed to blow up, get out asap. If we meet unexpected resistance we can probably deal with that too'.
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Well, I checked the FS Wiki and it appears that the Myrmidon is the ONLY fighter in the GTVA that doesn't carry the Harpoon. It is a bit strange, won't you admit ? Then again, it is one of only four fighters (the others being Perseus, Seth and Tauret) that can carry the Stiletto II.
Then I looked at the GTM Harpoon entry. "The GTM-19 Harpoon is one of the newest missiles in the GTVA tactical arsenal." is what we can read in the intro. Since it's not from the Tech Room, I assume it's not a canon information. However, given that we know for sure that it is "the most sophisticated weapon in the GTVA arsenal", we can safely assume that it was developed in the recent past (several months, perhaps a couple of years before the Second Shivan Incursion). Who knows, maybe it was a response to the NTF Rebellion ?
Now, it's me speculating, but is it THAT improbable that the Harpoon was introduced after the Myrmidon ? That would explain why there was no initial compatibility. Now, why wasn't it refitted ? Who knows. Perhaps the "ultra-efficient hull configuration [that] provides space for three secondary weapon systems, a first for Terran-Vasudan fighters" thing prevented them from it ? Or perhaps the Myrmidon is supposed to rely primarily on primaries for dogfighting, thus making such a refit too costly and not effective enough in the eyes of the command ?
After all, it does have 6 guns - that's equal to the GTF Hercules, GTF Ares, GVF Tauret and second only to GTF Erinyes. All of those are so called heavy or assault fighters. Now, in-universe at least, a space superiority fighter with the primaries of an assault one surely is supposed to rely on its primaries, with the secondaries being reserved for more specialised or support tasks. Think Erinyes, but to a smaller extent.
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Now, it's me speculating, but is it THAT improbable that the Harpoon was introduced after the Myrmidon ? That would explain why there was no initial compatibility. Now, why wasn't it refitted ? Who knows. Perhaps the "ultra-efficient hull configuration [that] provides space for three secondary weapon systems, a first for Terran-Vasudan fighters" thing prevented them from it ?
I could buy that, but wasn't the Interceptor also a "newly introduced" missile that the (even-at-the-time-horribly-aged) Apollo could use?
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The compatibilities are all over the place for a lot of the spacecraft anyway, it's not too hard to imagine some excuse for the Harpoon to not work in the Myrmidon. In any case, it's not a huge loss since it still has Tornado compatibility.
BTW, is there somewhere I can look up how the damage works for the weapons in Freespace? Each Harpoon does 100 damage so two is 200 right? But how do they OHKO something like a Perseus that has 350 shields and 265 armor then?
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Teh Apollo is superior.
Science made it true.
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The compatibilities are all over the place for a lot of the spacecraft anyway, it's not too hard to imagine some excuse for the Harpoon to not work in the Myrmidon. In any case, it's not a huge loss since it still has Tornado compatibility.
BTW, is there somewhere I can look up how the damage works for the weapons in Freespace? Each Harpoon does 100 damage so two is 200 right? But how do they OHKO something like a Perseus that has 350 shields and 265 armor then?
That value is just the damage from the impact of the missile with the fighter - when it explodes, it also creates a blast which deals damage.
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How is that calculated then? I looked around in the modding forum but didn't find a damage formula for missiles =/
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Probably within the tables themselves and looking for the variable for blast damage.
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Yeah, I've looked at the tables before but I must be interpreting the information wrong.
Harpoon:
$Armor Factor: 1.0
$Shield Factor: 0.8
$Subsystem Factor: 0.5
Tornado:
$Armor Factor: 2.0
$Shield Factor: 1.0
$Subsystem Factor: 0.3
This doesn't jive with my experience with the two missiles. It seems to indicate that the Tornado does double the damage of Harpoons on bare hull and the shield damage of the Tornado is higher than the Harpoons? Hull damage I can't say for sure, but shield damage for the Harpoon is almost always higher.
There's also no information how the damage is prorated over the blast since the damage is greater than the impact values. I was hoping it was explained somewhere.
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My experience is that even against high-shield low-hull craft like Shivan fighters, Tornados are superior for 1-Salvo killing power... but they take up twice as much space and don't deal twice as much damage.
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They do, at least to armour, as their base damage is indentical to one Harpoon, provided that you hit directly with all warheads.
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Since it's not from the Tech Room, I assume it's not a canon information.
Tech room descriptions are canon.
Regardless of how much it may contradict other canon, all of the content of FS, ST, FS2, and OT (and MAYBE the demo of FS2) are canon.
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Since it's not from the Tech Room, I assume it's not a canon information.
Tech room descriptions are canon.
Regardless of how much it may contradict other canon, all of the content of FS, ST, FS2, and OT (and MAYBE the demo of FS2) are canon.
Hope this helps.
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Finally, we have an explanation for the Myrmidon's massive volume:
"The Myrm comes equipped with an internal subspace generator which magically spews out a friggin' huge warhead. Unfortunately, this subspace generator is incompatible with the GTM Harpoon. As the Helios is rarely used, however, this feature is nearly useless..."
Quoted for epicness.
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Finally, we have an explanation for the Myrmidon's massive volume:
"The Myrm comes equipped with an internal subspace generator which magically spews out a friggin' huge warhead. Unfortunately, this subspace generator is incompatible with the GTM Harpoon. As the Helios is rarely used, however, this feature is nearly useless..."
Quoted for epicness.
Dammit, I was just about to say that. :mad:
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In-universe, the AI is so dumb that simply slowing down means you get free shots at them =(
Not if you give them decent sidethrust and set $Circle Strafe Percent to a high value. ;)
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Just give a shot to Fury's AI, and try dogfighting a couple of Lokis in Hard or Insane, and then tell us again that the AI can't fly :p
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@sushi
Yeah, well give me strafing abilities and I'd be able to do a lot more damage too (hello double-time bombing runs).
@MatthTheGeek
So basically you're saying that retail AI is inferior to modified AI? I don't exactly need you to tell me that ;p
However, I am interested in a furball mission with this upgraded AI.
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Just give a shot to Fury's AI, and try dogfighting a couple of Lokis in Hard or Insane, and then tell us again that the AI can't fly :p
Ever see the new WiH trailer? Even on Medium a MYRMIDON was demonstrating good jinxing from enemy fire.
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Just give a shot to Fury's AI, and try dogfighting a couple of Lokis in Hard or Insane, and then tell us again that the AI can't fly :p
Ever see the new WiH trailer? Even on Medium a MYRMIDON was demonstrating good jinxing from enemy fire.
I've been playing the mission in the trailer with Fury's AI and it really is a blast. The fighters aren't Dragon-level exasperating, but they put up more of a fight, enough to make things challenging.
And you simply can't get anywhere near an Aeolus. They spew flak bath.
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I saw that, I don't think I'm going near one ever, for any reason whatsoever. :P
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Don't use the modified AI on capital ships (actually on any turreted ship), that's not what it's made for, it dramatically increases their fire rate to something really unbalanced.
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You think so, BP is the place from where the new AI originated, so our team took care of balance.
You'll still not want to fly close to an Aeolus, no matter the level.
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Don't use the modified AI on capital ships (actually on any turreted ship), that's not what it's made for, it dramatically increases their fire rate to something really unbalanced.
Er, my friend, as Dilmah said, we made the AI. Sometimes it's quite appropriate to use on warships.
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Don't worry, I was addressing to the ones wanting to use Fury's AI for their own custom games. I'm pretty sure you know what you're doing :D