[Aardwolf]

I think the Nebiros was originally meant to be a cruiser, I think Snipes would have had a far more "HOLY **** DODGE" reaction if it had been a Ravana then. That was something that always struck me as odd about that mission.

About the ships that can use the Helios. If you put the number of Helios they can carry on top of each other I bet more than the Myrm would end up smaller than their payload.

But in a later mission the Nebiros is responsible for the deployment of enemy bombers (and I've been told that if you fail that mission it jumps in as well). And cruisers don't have fighterbays.

[Commander Zane]

IMO Helios is a mistake, but i think that Harpoons weren't meant to be available for Myrm pilots. Dunno it feels somehow wrong.

That's like saying AIM-54 Phoenixes feel wrong on an F-14 Tomcat, a missile specifically made for long-range interception, made for a fighter that's specifically (More or less) made for interception.

[stuart133]

IMO Helios is a mistake, but i think that Harpoons weren't meant to be available for Myrm pilots. Dunno it feels somehow wrong.

That's like saying AIM-54 Phoenixes feel wrong on an F-14 Tomcat, a missile specifically made for long-range interception, made for a fighter that's specifically (More or less) made for interception.

I kinda know what he means though, they just don't seem to fit in with the rest of the ships characteristics.

[Commander Zane]

Nonetheless, a fighter meant to do a little of everything, especially a fighter, shouldn't have anti-fighter missile incompatabilities. That simply shatters its ability as a fighter. If it's meant to intercept (That also means taking down fighters, not just bombers) it should have the firepower capable to effectively do so. The same applies for escort.

[General Battuta]

I'm not sure the Harpoon is that important to the Myrmidon's abilities, though.

[headdie]

Nonetheless, a fighter meant to do a little of everything, especially a fighter, shouldn't have anti-fighter missile incompatabilities. That simply shatters its ability as a fighter. If it's meant to intercept (That also means taking down fighters, not just bombers) it should have the firepower capable to effectively do so. The same applies for escort.

whats worse is that fighters slated as a superiority in FS2 spend most of their time in the game hunting fighters due to the dominance of fighters in game so denying any superiority fighter the harpoon which is supposed to be the standard dog fighting aspect lock missile is strange to say the least and ranks alongside denying bombers the use of the cyclops I know FS1 had the Athena was tagged as a bomber which was unable to carry any bombs but to be honest the Athena played more of an heavy assault role so in my mind was mislabeled

[Commander Zane]

I'm not sure the Harpoon is that important to the Myrmidon's abilities, though.

Space Superiority? If that's anything like Air Superiority then it SHOULD be able to use any and every anti-fighter missile in the GTVA's arsenal.

[Vip]

Many people wonder how the Myrmidon is supposed to replace the Ulysses. But if you read the tech descriptions and think for for a while, it makes sense. The Ulysses has great manoeuvrability and speed, but it better suited for offensive missions. And in the Reconstruction period, between the Hades Rebellion and NTF Rebellion, we have 30 years of relative peace and lack of assault missions. The GTVA was in need of a fighter that would be more suited to this defensive style.

Besides, they needed a jack-of-all-trades. The Herc II packs a bigger punch, Valkyrie (later Perseus, but it only went into service at the end of the NTF rebellion) is a much better interceptor while the Ulysses can fly circles around its enemies. The problem here is that usually those fighters would have to cooperate in most operations. So a small depot raid would involve for example a wing of Hercs for the destruction and a wing of Ulysses for protection. This makes sense during war, but in peacetimes it's just not economical.

A wing of Myrmidons, on the other hands, can do this job on its own. It packs enough weaponry to be a threat even for light capships like cruisers or freighters, can handle itself better in a dogfight than the Herc and still has enough armour to survive long enough for the reinforcements to come should something unexpected happen. It was built so that it could respond to to any situation, at least in a limited fashion. That's why it has three banks, to allow for a bigger variety of secondaries. A true multirole fighter. And remember that Myrmidon entered service (possibly a long time) before the Perseus.

You could probably ask why not keep the old Apollos around if they were better at multiroling ? Well, those fighters were already considered old during the Great War. 30 years later, they were probably seen as relics. The maintenance cost of them plus all the refits so that modern systems could be installed on it would prolly cost more than a brand new Myrmidon.

And don't forget one more thing - the Myrm was created as a Terran-Vasudan fighter. This probably helped improve the relations between Terrans and Vasudans too.

[General Battuta]

I'm not sure the Harpoon is that important to the Myrmidon's abilities, though.

Space Superiority? If that's anything like Air Superiority then it SHOULD be able to use any and every anti-fighter missile in the GTVA's arsenal.

It's not like air superiority, because air superiority is in real life, and the Myrmidon is in FreeSpace.

The Myrmidon carries Tempests, which are pretty much all one needs secondary-wise for dogfighting. I'm not convinced the Harpoon is actually necessary.

[Commander Zane]

Keep the skies free of hostiles, how's the simple meaning of an Air Superiority fighter that different from using Space Superiority to do the same thing in space, I'd rather see the Myrmidon with Harpoon compatability otherwise I see its use as a "Superiority" fighter as moot.
Sure I doubled my kill count on one playthrough using Tempests, but I only applied them when it made sense. That doesn't mean I'm trying to take down Dragons or Manticores or Astaroths when I could more effectively use a Prometheus S.

[General Battuta]

That's all immaterial. The question is whether the Myrmidon needs the Harpoon to do its job and I'm really not sure it does. There's nothing in 'space superiority fighter' that says 'carries every missile out there'.

[SypheDMar]

If you really think that the Myrmidon's supposed to use the Helios, then I have no comment. Or maybe I do, but that wasn't what I was arguing for, anyway.

If you really think they screwed up that badly in not giving it the Harpoon, you're crazy. Somebody would have noticed in beta. If the Helios was simply the odd one out in the table entry for stuff, sure, I could buy that it's a mistake, but it's not; they also delibrately did not give the Myrmidon the Harpoon, which is a much more glaring and serious error if there are any errors about, and once they went to fix that they would have noticed the Helios was in there too.

But they didn't go to fix that. Everything, therefore, is most likely as it should be.

You're making the assumption that I said that the Myrmidon is supposed to be able to use Harpoons. I never said that. Several others have at least answered the question.

[Woolie Wool]

That's all immaterial. The question is whether the Myrmidon needs the Harpoon to do its job and I'm really not sure it does. There's nothing in 'space superiority fighter' that says 'carries every missile out there'.

The Harpoon isn't just a missile, it is by far the most important missile for a superiority fighter. A real "air superiority fighter" is a fighter that can effectively engage other combat aircraft and enable uncontested control of airspace in the combat zone--essentially a fighter designed to destroy other fighters. Translated to FreeSpace, this means a ship that can quickly clear the skies of other small craft and dominate other fighters--the Harpoon is by far the best secondary weapon for this task.

The Myrmidon's lack of agility is a pretty big detriment to that role as well. One could possibly classify it as a multirole fighter, but it fails there too because one of the defining characteristics of a multirole fighter is the ability to carry weapons for as many purposes as possible. You don't want a multirole fighter that has a gaping hole in its selection of weaponry.

[Scotty]

If you think you can't use the Tornado or Tempest to quickly clear the skies (or space) of other small craft (or even cruisers), you aren't using them correctly.  They both outclass the Harpoon.  The former, because of massed damage and greater CM resistance (takes more for more missiles), the latter because of the small payload space needed for a ****tonne of them.

The Harpoon is just a missile.  Lacking them does not make the Myrmidon a piece of ****.

[Woolie Wool]

The Tornado does not have the accuracy or the ammo capacity to be useful for space superiorty, especially on a fighter like the Myrmidon which can carry only 16 (8 if you double-fire) sets of Tornadoes. The Myrmidon essentially has twice as much endurance with Harpoons than Tornadoes, which is a very big deal. The Tornado is an assault missile best paired with the Herc II or Ares. The Tempest's lack of homing and the Myrmidon's lack of agility work together to make it much less useful than the Harpoon against fighters like the Ulysses, Loki, Mara, and Dragon, plus its short range means the Myrmidon has to get into close combat with targets, which plays to more agile fighters' strengths.

[ChronoReverse]

Erm, the Tornado has longer range and similar homing capability compared to the Harpoon.  Its only flaw is that although the raw damage in single fire is equal to the Harpoon's double fire, the shield damage is lower and thus can't kill medium fighters in single mode.  However, it makes up for that by being able to take down heavy fighters and light bombers which Harpoons are unable to even in double fire mode.

Furthermore, if this were a serious bout for space superiority, the range coupled with greater potential damage is more important.  For instance, the MX-64 is very useful in multi despite the huge warhead and low damage because it has a great range advantage.

Besides, even in double fire, that's 8 kill-shots which isn't exactly nothing.  It's double the amount of double fire Harpoons that Loki or Dragon fighters can carry and equal to the Ulysses' Harpoon capacity.  All of which might not even be able to get a shot off in a head-to-head against a Tornado Myrmidon because of the range issue.  Plus more damage from the Tornados too.

[General Battuta]

That's all immaterial. The question is whether the Myrmidon needs the Harpoon to do its job and I'm really not sure it does. There's nothing in 'space superiority fighter' that says 'carries every missile out there'.

The Harpoon isn't just a missile, it is by far the most important missile for a superiority fighter. A real "air superiority fighter" is a fighter that can effectively engage other combat aircraft and enable uncontested control of airspace in the combat zone--essentially a fighter designed to destroy other fighters. Translated to FreeSpace, this means a ship that can quickly clear the skies of other small craft and dominate other fighters--the Harpoon is by far the best secondary weapon for this task.

I'm really not convinced the Harpoon would allow the Myrmidon to do any better in its existing role. Arguably its relative clumsiness is a weakness, but the Harpoon I'm not all that bothered by, especially as it makes it more interesting.

The Harpoon, like most aspect missiles, is kind of a silly thing and arguably unnecessary.

 I don't think exchanging verbiage about it is really going to be productive, either.

[Solatar]

I think it just would have made a bad game to give the player an awesome space superiority fighter in the first mission...

[Mongoose]

The Harpoon, like most aspect missiles, is kind of a silly thing and arguably unnecessary.

It's not unnecessary when you're like me and can't aim with Tempests for beans.

[Woolie Wool]

Nor if you're in a fighter where a turning battle with many enemy fighters (which is inevitable if you're using Tempests) is often a losing proposition.