[karajorma]

I've said to friends a few times - I don't wish death from this on anyone, but a good bout of prolonged misery and suffering is cosmic justice at work in the case of certain individuals.

I was going to say pretty much the same thing. His plan was for most of the country to catch the virus. Perhaps having gone through it, he'll have a bit more sympathy for those who are.

EDIT: I wanted to share this comment I saw on YouTube in response to claims that America is facing its Pearl Harbour moment.

This isn’t a Pearl Harbor moment where an enemy country attacked America by surprise. This is our Chernobyl moment. Something we could see coming, we had ample warnings about it, but the government ignored the experts and then tried to make it look less bad after it was out of control.

[perihelion]

That is so on point it hurts.

[Grizzly]

What is the cost of lies?

[Grizzly]

https://imgur.com/ZIJKeE3

[Androgeos Exeunt]

It's The Sun, so maybe I should have expected this.

Enjoy your slow TV while it's up.

[jr2]

The thing that's really disturbing about jr2 is that he still doesn't give a **** about the disease. He's never managed to make the leap to talking about the pandemic as a serious issue. All he cares about is whether Trump did good or bad and what the liberals think about it.

#FakeNews, I pretty much only try to counter what I view as egregious bias (aka TDS).  The tipping point was the comment that the US was handling this worse than Iran.  You (the people that are lunatic enough to believe that kind of tripe just because Orange Man Bad) can **** right off with that load of bull****.  FFS you've got George Conway defending Trump sometimes now.  Never Trumpers.  Defending Trump.  Be better FFS (to the TDS infected in general).

EDIT:  And just for your information Batts, I follow Styxhexenhammer666 on Youtube.  He's been treating this as a serious issue since what, January?  Early February at the least.  K, just checked, January 18:

[karajorma]

But as I have asked you multiple times, "Why are you spreading bull**** in order to defend again bias?" If people are biased against Trump then you should be able to defend him with the truth. You shouldn't need to misrepresent it in order to prove that you are right and that the news is being biased.

But instead, you've published a series of half-truths, been challenged about them and then simply moved on to the next one. So yes, it's pretty obvious you don't care about the truth and are only trying to prove that Trump is great.

[jr2]

So yes, it's pretty obvious you don't care about the truth and are only trying to prove that Trump is great.

Nope, I don't really expect people to believe that if they are leftist.  However I can't countenance false accusations that he's the devil himself and somehow both incredibly stupid and incompetent at the same time as being an evil genius bent on conquering the world.  He's just normal.  How can anyone with a ****ing straight face claim Trump wasn't taking this seriously enough when we had Pelosi, Newsom, the Nevada governor etc in February encouraging mass gatherings in Chinatown, Mardi Gras, and basically insisting that Trump's only reason for closing off travel to China was racism (instead of simply an abundance of caution, despite the WHO claiming no person to person transmission based on China saving face by burying this for 3 weeks), and THEN turn around and blame Trump for dragging his feet because he basically implied it would blow over?

Think about this from Trump's view: the 'experts' claimed this was a nothingburger despite signs counter to that.  Trump plays it safe.  He probably figures he's gotten ahead of this and shut it down.  Not realizing that the situation in China was actually much, much worse than it appeared, and the WHO was relaying bad data from the CCP.

https://www.who.int/csr/don/12-january-2020-novel-coronavirus-china/en/
January 12 2020

According to the preliminary epidemiological investigation, most cases worked at or were handlers and frequent visitors to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market. The government reports that there is no clear evidence that the virus passes easily from person to person.

EDIT: A source for the claim CCP was stonewalling this and knew much earlier: https://nypost.com/2020/02/29/china-officials-knew-of-coronavirus-in-december-ordered-cover-up-report-says/

[mjn.mixael]

So yes, it's pretty obvious you don't care about the truth and are only trying to prove that Trump is great.

Nope, I don't really expect people to believe that if they are leftist.  However I can't countenance false accusations that he's the devil himself and somehow both incredibly stupid and incompetent at the same time as being an evil genius bent on conquering the world.  He's just normal.  How can anyone with a ****ing straight face claim Trump wasn't taking this seriously enough when we had Pelosi, Newsom, the Nevada governor etc in February encouraging mass gatherings in Chinatown, Mardi Gras, and basically insisting that Trump's only reason for closing off travel to China was racism (instead of simply an abundance of caution, despite the WHO claiming no person to person transmission based on China saving face by burying this for 3 weeks), and THEN turn around and blame Trump for dragging his feet because he basically implied it would blow over?

Think about this from Trump's view: the 'experts' claimed this was a nothingburger despite signs counter to that.  Trump plays it safe.  He probably figures he's gotten ahead of this and shut it down.  Not realizing that the situation in China was actually much, much worse than it appeared, and the WHO was relaying bad data from the CCP.

https://www.who.int/csr/don/12-january-2020-novel-coronavirus-china/en/
January 12 2020

According to the preliminary epidemiological investigation, most cases worked at or were handlers and frequent visitors to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market. The government reports that there is no clear evidence that the virus passes easily from person to person.

EDIT: A source for the claim CCP was stonewalling this and knew much earlier: https://nypost.com/2020/02/29/china-officials-knew-of-coronavirus-in-december-ordered-cover-up-report-says/

Easy counterpoint.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/world/coronavirus-live-news-updates.html#link-398ba6e7

A top White House adviser starkly warned Trump administration officials in late January that the coronavirus crisis could cost the United States trillions of dollars and put millions of Americans at risk of illness or death.

The warning, written in a memo by Peter Navarro, President Trump’s trade adviser, is the highest-level alert known to have circulated inside the West Wing as the administration was taking its first substantive steps to confront a crisis that had already consumed China’s leaders and would go on to upend life in Europe and the United States

[karajorma]

Nope, I don't really expect people to believe that if they are leftist.  However I can't countenance false accusations that he's the devil himself and somehow both incredibly stupid and incompetent at the same time as being an evil genius bent on conquering the world.

And the solution to that is to start lying yourself? You have repeatedly misrepresented the truth on this thread, and you wonder why no one believes you?

Besides, even that last comment is a lie. Where on this thread has anyone seriously said that Trump is a genius? The entire thread has pointed out that he's dangerously incompetent. So now you've gone from misrepresenting the truth about Trump to trying to gaslight us about what we've said about him!


EDIT: Gerrymandering is sooooo last year, let's try gerrymurdering

[Rhymes]

*more bull**** from jr2*

jr2, why are you continuing to spread bull**** in order to defend against perceived bias?

[The E]

#FakeNews, I pretty much only try to counter what I view as egregious bias (aka TDS).  The tipping point was the comment that the US was handling this worse than Iran.  You (the people that are lunatic enough to believe that kind of tripe just because Orange Man Bad) can **** right off with that load of bull****.  FFS you've got George Conway defending Trump sometimes now.  Never Trumpers.  Defending Trump.  Be better FFS (to the TDS infected in general).

Is it egregious bias to point out that the Trump administration's response to covid-19 has been a complete disaster of downplaying, miscommunication and lack of coordination?
Is the fact that Iran has had fewer cases per capita than the US egregious bias?
Is it egregious bias to point out that the Iranian government started taking measures earlier than the US did?

If you're trying to dispell the notion that you're only in this thread to defend the Trump administration against criticism, you've failed. If you're trying to position yourself as a rational person, your use of the old "Trump Derangement Syndrome" bit or the "orange man bad" meme is severely undercutting your arguments.

EDIT:  And just for your information Batts, I follow Styxhexenhammer666 on Youtube.  He's been treating this as a serious issue since what, January?  Early February at the least.  K, just checked, January 18

Believe it or not, jr2, we were already fully aware that you were getting your information on a variety of topics from sources that are, shall we say, not actually good. That that source was being a stopped clock on this topic does not make him any less of an idiot (and before you even start: Anyone who tries to argue that the Holocaust wasn't as bad as it was, even if they later recant, is an idiot and absolutely not trustworthy in my book).

[The E]

Nope, I don't really expect people to believe that if they are leftist.  However I can't countenance false accusations that he's the devil himself and somehow both incredibly stupid and incompetent at the same time as being an evil genius bent on conquering the world.  He's just normal.  How can anyone with a ****ing straight face claim Trump wasn't taking this seriously enough when we had Pelosi, Newsom, the Nevada governor etc in February encouraging mass gatherings in Chinatown, Mardi Gras, and basically insisting that Trump's only reason for closing off travel to China was racism (instead of simply an abundance of caution, despite the WHO claiming no person to person transmission based on China saving face by burying this for 3 weeks), and THEN turn around and blame Trump for dragging his feet because he basically implied it would blow over?

And here you are, once again being very selective in what you consider relevant. You excuse Trump's behaviour by claiming that he was following "expert" advice -- but how "expert" could this advice really have been, when very relevant positions in pandemic preparedness, including having people on the ground in China actually looking at what was going on, were unfilled?
How "expert" can any advice Trump gets really be when he leaves agencies chronically understaffed and prefers to have "acting" people in roles that require familiarity with the subject matter to be effective?

You are, again and again, claiming that Trump couldn't have done any better. Hell, Trump himself claims that. If Trump had taken office in January, that might have been a good point -- but he didn't. He not only reacted badly during this crisis, his entire management style in the months and years before the outbreak created conditions conducive to your country now suffering the worst outbreak amongst first world nations. You trying to spread blame around by saying that other people in the US' government were also giving bad advice does not change the fact that, at the root of it all, there's Trump's unreadiness for the office he now occupies. The United States, under Trump, have become incredibly fragile as this crisis shows, and your and his desperate attempts to shift blame are as transparent as they are pathetic.

[Grizzly]

It should be noted that JR2 being the only rational person in a forum full of people that suffer from mental illnesses is, off course, the fault of the CCP.

[Grizzly]

I think it's important to note that jr2's deflections continue to be about grabbing information from early january, and not updates to that information in late january, february, and early march, to defend against critique that is being levelled against the Trump administration in late march and now.

Segue into: Trump's continued focus into quack medicine or how the federal "airbridge" is about enriching private companies rather then getting states the supplies they need.

[Mito [PL]]

Actually, no, it isn't the fault of CCP. Both CCP and these illnesses exist because of some primary underlying problem in people's mentality.

And of course, Trump has predicted the outbreak years ahead and thinned out every service in order to achieve maximum social and economic impact in early 2020!


The linked article also states:

WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available on this event.

Does mjn's "counterpoint" (basically an statement: we warned but Trump always does the opposite) even carry any information?

Let's see, so 12th Jan, WHO states that nobody should restrict travel to/from China. 29th Jan, the advisor warns about the severity of the danger. Between the two dates two things supposedly happen at the same time: Trump attempts to preemptively reduce traffic with China (jr2, any sources?), and Trump also downplays the risk (anyone?).

Let's be serious, now that we have some hindsight into the matter, *everyone* could have done better, possibly even to the point of having none cases without any internal anti-pandemic measures (that is, locking the borders).

Does jr2 even state that Trump did everything perfectly and nothing more could've been done, or it was just inferred because instead of hopping onto the "blame Trump" train he attempted to correct some points of the discussion towards something that doesn't outright blame Trump for everything?


This discussion reminds me of some cases of immigrants being kicked out of the US during Obama's presidency, or having procedures leading to it mostly completed during Obama's presidency and finished by Trump administration. Then they're causing a big ruckus in the television and internet about how "evil Trump has ilegally kicked them out of the US", to the standing ovations of every piece of anti-Trump audience.

[Mito [PL]]

Oh look, it gets even better. 5G conspiracy crowd intensifies: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/884jkb/people-in-the-uk-are-burning-5g-phone-towers-because-conspiracy-theorists-claim-they-spread-coronavirus


Edit:
Hmm, looks like Polish police officers are issuing tickets for people who dared to walk out without any gloves or to... wash your car. Note, no law to enforce this had been passed. Out of many things that got locked, there's the eyebrow-raising lockup of forests and parks. Just, why?

[The E]

Let's see, so 12th Jan, WHO states that nobody should restrict travel to/from China. 29th Jan, the advisor warns about the severity of the danger. Between the two dates two things supposedly happen at the same time: Trump attempts to preemptively reduce traffic with China (jr2, any sources?), and Trump also downplays the risk (anyone?).

Trump was busy downplaying events all through March.

Also, Trump did reduce traffic coming in from China ... long after the virus had already reached the US. He tried to ban travel from Europe -- but, interestingly, he excluded countries with Trump holdings from those restrictions.

Basically, the US government wasted February and most of March by not actually preparing for the epidemic that everyone who was actually paying attention could see coming.

Does jr2 even state that Trump did everything perfectly and nothing more could've been done, or it was just inferred because instead of hopping onto the "blame Trump" train he attempted to correct some points of the discussion towards something that doesn't outright blame Trump for everything?

Think about this from Trump's view: the 'experts' claimed this was a nothingburger despite signs counter to that.  Trump plays it safe.  He probably figures he's gotten ahead of this and shut it down.  Not realizing that the situation in China was actually much, much worse than it appeared, and the WHO was relaying bad data from the CCP.

Here's jr2 claiming that Trump was led astray by "experts".

This discussion reminds me of some cases of immigrants being kicked out of the US during Obama's presidency, or having procedures leading to it mostly completed during Obama's presidency and finished by Trump administration. Then they're causing a big ruckus in the television and internet about how "evil Trump has ilegally kicked them out of the US", to the standing ovations of every piece of anti-Trump audience.

You don't get it, do you. Trump is the President of the United States. He is ultimately responsible for everything the executive agencies of the US do or do not do. It does not matter whether he instituted the policies his agencies are following or whether it was one of his predecessors: That is an important factor to consider when it comes to assigning full responsibility, but it doesn't change the fact that it happened on his watch, following procedures he or his deputies acting under his authority signed off on.
As President, disaster response and disaster preparedness are fully under his remit. He could have made sure that the federal agencies responsible for responding here were adequately staffed, trained and empowered to do what is necessary, but chose not to. He could have established clear lines of decisionmaking early on, but chose not to. He is, in short, to blame.

[Grizzly]

Mito, some of the points you ask about have already been discussed earlier in the thread.

[Luis Dias]

Are we even throwing into the dustbin of history the mere fact that in 2018 Trump zapped the entire US pandemic response team, and with it the *one* team that could have prepared and organized the federal response to this crisis and averted its current numbers?

What was that Trump said about this?

“Well, I just think it’s a nasty question. And when you say me — I didn’t do it. We have a group of people I could —”

“It’s your administration,” Alcindor interjected.

“I could ask perhaps, it’s my administration, but I could perhaps ask Tony about that, because I don’t know anything about it,” the president said, gesturing towards Dr. Fauci, who was not involved in disbanding the team, but had expressed regret that it was no longer there. “I mean, you say we did that. I don’t know anything about it,”

(The Intercept)

Criminal negligence 101. But I'm sure we can also blame the CCP about this. Or the Libs. Or Pelosi, somehow (apparently, the IDW is tasked of doing this).