Author Topic: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)  (Read 13733 times)

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Offline Trivial Psychic

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MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
I know this will invariably result in the why-don't-you-just-use-Knossos reply, but I think you should include a mod ini file and bmp image files to go along with the root VM file.  It gives you a chance to include a new mod image.
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Offline Novachen

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
I know this will invariably result in the why-don't-you-just-use-Knossos reply, but I think you should include a mod ini file and bmp image files to go along with the root VM file.  It gives you a chance to include a new mod image.

I am actually for that, too, because i do not stick totally to Knossos and see it problematic if the whole community would do.
I would prefer an official foldername on this way, too, because that make it easier for manual installations, because you have an official folder name you can use in the mod.ini like in every other version.

Currently you would have to say "yes, actually you have to edit the mod.ini for that"... or "MediaVPs 3.8.1 have to be in a folder called MVP381" or something like that.
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
HLP is moving to Knossos.

My current opinion on the matter is that it you're advanced enough to be dealing with manual installs, you're advanced enough to make your own mod.ini.

I'm also willing to have my mind changed by a strong enough argument.
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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Considering that the Knossos gives critical error to many who try to update their MediaVP I would say the manual install should be made easy within reason.

Once the Knossos is out of beta you can start ignoring manual installers.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Now that I'm awake let me add the following before I respond to hirmulolio...

There is still no mod that I've seen updated to use MediaVPs 3.8. Any mod release before yesterday should be using 2014 and there's already a standardized folder for that. I will say again that users should not be arbitrarily forcing mods to use the new MediaVPs version. (PIe and I have been updating popular older mods and putting them on Knossos and will update them to use 3.8 in the coming weeks. If there's a mod not on Knossos and you aren't sure how to do it, let us know.)

Any mod updated to use 3.8 should probably be released on Knossos anyway. Manual installs and the older (in most cases no longer developed) launchers are archaic compared to the ease of Knossos. We're already directing new players to Knossos. Additionally, I've been using Knossos as part of my development (with SVN attached) of both BtA and MediaVPs. It has a few extra steps.. I wouldn't say it's easier, but it is better by forcing me to think about packages, mod details/metadata, dependencies by version instead of by title... at the tradeoff of a very, very convenient distribution platform (for free!).

Here's one other reason that I've thought through. With Knossos making distribution very simple, I intend for the MediaVPs to get more regular updates (quarterly?) in addition to off-the-cuff patching for minor issues. It will be minor revisions (3.8.x) for bugfixes, mid revisions for new features (3.x.x), major revisions that have serious backwards compatibility considerations (x.x.x). New ship models could easily go in a 3.9 for example. With this in mind, how long would I have to keep making mod.inis for mods that still refuse to take advantage of Knossos? (This is as good a place as any to note that the number of new mod releases is very low these days.)

Lastly, you may call it anti-trust if you want (since I helped develop Knossos) but if MediaVPs 3.8 being a Knossos exclusive forces more of the community to get on board, then I consider that a strong partnership.  :p

EDIT: Oh, and I can't just "include a mod.ini and standard install folder" with the individual files because I let Knossos handle creating those when I released the mod. It would require a separate download here just for all that. Which creates a lot of work and potentially all kinds of different checksums reported by FSO making debuging difficult.

OK, hirmuolio... I still disagree. The bug is unfortunate, but it is the first time that has happened since we started getting mods up on Knossos. I'm not going to completely change the way I want to release mods because of a single bug. That bug, also has a very easy work around. Instead of clicking Update on the Home tab of Knossos, go to Explore and click Install for the MediaVPs. Ngld will have a proper fix out soon, Knossos will self update, and we can go on our merry way.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 04:02:21 pm by mjn.mixael »
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Actually, fine. Here's the compromise for you archaic individuals. I've added a file you can download in the release post that contains a folder and a basic mod.ini. Install that and then install the packages. I am not, however, going to use my time making images or other metadata for older launchers. I will also not be repackaging the downloads to make sure they install into the correct folder like we've done in the past. Manual installs are for advanced users and/or people who refuse progress.

Manual installs also void the warranty and I will not support or debug them because they make it highly likely you won't keep up with the version patches or that there will be installation mistakes.
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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
As long as you tell us archaic individuals when and what (which files) you update, everything is OK for me. :D I just deleted the old MVPs and extracted the new ones into the same folder, so I don't know where the problem is.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Minor update notifications are on Knossos or discord via Knossos. Essentially, I refuse to duplicate my work for a handful of people.
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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
I don't mind if non-Knossos isn't supported anymore; I know how to get the files. But not being told anymore when something is updated... I mean every mod-dev atleast says "I updated the files"...

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
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Offline deathspeed

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
For some of us, it's not that we are archaic or refuse to accept the future which is Knossos; it is that we choose not to be beta testers and we prefer to have something that works with what we already have.  I will switch to Knossos someday, but today is not that day. 

Maybe Saturday, though.
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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)

 

Offline CT27

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Thank you for releasing a mod.ini for this in the release thread.

Minor question:  how does one get the picture for this that's on the 'highlights' link? 
I'm using the most recent version of wxlauncher and in the list it shows the stock image for these mediavps.

 
Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Here, you can have this version. It's a bit squashed and downscaled to fit 255x122. Just add image255x112 = FSU-MVP.bmp; after modname in your mod.ini


Nevermind, imgur just uploads a png and HLP doesn't support .bmp extensions. So just grab https://fsnebula.global.ssl.fastly.net/storage/20/cf/205ecefff5f8b9da7420d795b208d679207ee75917ebbfd74182eec0137e.png from nebula and convert and downscale it yourself in paint or whatever.

Just click on it and save the image, then rename it to FSU-MVP.bmp. Or you can do the same thing with the highlights image and then downscale it yourself.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 09:54:00 pm by FrikgFeek »
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Offline Fusion

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Not gonna lie, Knossos as is runs far more smoothly than wxlauncher did, at least for me. Only downside is that TVWP isn't listed, but practically every other campaign I've played has run perfectly the first time on Knossos in contrast to having issues on wxlauncher.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Oh yeah. I still have a tab open to tvwp with intention to get it on Knossos.
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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
I'm just wondering how Knossos even works. I followed the wizard and it made a folder with "bin", "temp", and "FS2" inside it. Now what? What do I run? Should I install wxLauncher? Where can I install it?

 
Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Knossos is both launcher and installer, you don't need wxLauncher. Support here: https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=94068

This topic has been reserved for... complains :D

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
I've been asked to put MVPs 3.8.x on the FSO Installer, so I will do so.  It will take a couple of days, and safety is not guaranteed.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: MediaVPs & Knossos (RE: Some People Don't Like Change; Refuse Future)
Okay, 3.8 is now on the FSO Installer.