[Mars]

Besides, it seems pretty obvious to me that if Ubuntu spreaded to the whole GTVA, now knowing the full extent of the Shivan threat, they would spend much more of their resources on the military front - even more than the already huge amount they spent while being completely isolated and having no threat to defend themselves against (three 3.5 km long destroyers and squadrons of freighter-sized fleet bombers aren't exactly what I'd call police and peace-keeping forces) - so the whole "Ubuntu would leave us defenseless" argument is pretty much retarded to me.

Really? It seems to me that the citizens of Sol would remember the fact that there are highly advanced xenocidal aliens sitting right outside their metaphorical doorstep. They don't know about the Sathanas fleet, but they do know the Shivans can use hitherto uncharted jump nodes, have weapons of immense power, and were prevented from destroying earth by the very last available squadron at the last second.

This seems like a good reason to keep building ships.

Ahem. Consider this. The GTVA basically has one Battlegroup for each system. The UEF has the rough equivalent of five. In a system that has been cut off from everything. And that doesn't need that much of a military presence, not really. I mean, it's like trying to convince the american public that what they really need are five additional Carrier battlegroups. They're just surplus to requirement.

IIRC GTA  has two battlegroups ~ 4 destroyers per system. The GTA systems of course are much less densely populated, and have much less infrastructure than Sol. The military output of the UEF in this light is not impressive.

I'm not saying that their ships aren't impressive and tactically diverse, I'm saying that no, they don't have the military power of the GTVA at all..

Buckshee said it better I think.



EDIT:

Oh, also, this whole "The Shivans would kill all anyway, so it doesn't matter" argument doesn't make a lot of sense either. Clearly 80 Sathani are going to steamroll everyone, but the more powerful the force, the bigger the assault they'll be able to hold off and the more people they'll be able to evacuate. The point of all that gear is to hold back Shivans, and who knows, maybe if you kill enough Sathani, they won't be able to make the next star go Supernova.

[The E]

If you take the UEF's fleet and compare it to the industrial capacity of the Sol system it's relatively small, even though in actuality it's quite large. If you were to apply that same ratio of military to Ubuntu-ised GTVA systems they'd have very minimalist defences, certainly not enough to combat the Shivans.

Except that they didn't have that large a fleet because they didn't really need one. If the UEF were to cover the same territory as the GTVA, you bet they would do things differently.

They're pacifistic in the same sense that they aren't militaristic. Just because they have adapted to fight a hyper intense war in a single star system doesn't mean they have any sort of galactic-scale war fighting ability, at least not on par with what the GTVA has.

You cannot make extrapolations on their probable behaviour based on their behaviour under very specific, unique circumstances.

Ninja'ed. Surely the vast amount of shipping, Gef raids and the unlikely possiblity of Shivan invasion is justification for a navy at all? I still believe the UEF have a rather small force relatively speaking when compated to Sol's military potential. Doesn't change the fact that though relatively small it's still a large fleet.

Yes, but subspace is the great equalizer. Response time for warships responding to an emergency is on the order of a few minutes across the entire system. The police is never more than a few minutes away, being a robber is remarkably less fun that way.

Ninja'ed again. The GTVA has Sathanas-killing firepower on hand. You can argue that they're ultimately ineffective since the Shivans would inevitably win, but it doesn't change the fact that the GTVA is a much safer bet.

That's a different issue. The GTVA has beam tech, sure. The GTVA has corvette strike teams built around beam tech that can kill Destroyers in a heartbeat.
However, extrapolating what you see in the UEF across a hypothetical UEF that covers the entire GTVA is a very wrong thing to do.

Really? It seems to me that the citizens of Sol would remember the fact that there are highly advanced xenocidal aliens sitting right outside their metaphorical doorstep. They don't know about the Sathanas fleet, but they do know the Shivans can use hitherto uncharted jump nodes, have weapons of immense power, and were prevented from destroying earth by the very last available squadron at the last second.

Sure. That's why they have a massively oversized and overpowered fleet.

IIRC GTA  has two battlegroups ~ 4 destroyers per system. The GTA systems of course are much less densely populated, and have much less infrastructure than Sol. The military output of the UEF in this light is not impressive.

GTVA (terran side) has a dozen systems, and 15 Battlegroups. So yeah, it's 1:1.25.

Oh, also, this whole "The Shivans would kill all anyway, so it doesn't matter" argument doesn't make a lot of sense either. Clearly 80 Sathani are going to steamroll everyone, but the more powerful the force, the bigger the assault they'll be able to hold off and the more people they'll be able to evacuate. The point of all that gear is to hold back Shivans, and who knows, maybe if you kill enough Sathani, they won't be able to make the next star go Supernova.

Assumes facts not in evidence. To wit, that 80 Saths form a hard upper limit for the Shivans. The basic problem with fighting shivans is that noone knows what their capabilities are. They're giant space fleas from nowhere, there is no way to measure what their logistical capabilities are.

[Mars]

Assumes facts not in evidence. To wit, that 80 Saths form a hard upper limit for the Shivans. The basic problem with fighting shivans is that noone knows what their capabilities are. They're giant space fleas from nowhere, there is no way to measure what their logistical capabilities are.

What other solutions are there?

[The E]

There aren't many. It's just that the GTVA's fixation on shooting Shivans to glowy bits, while certainly helping to remove a few Shivans here or there, may not be the ultimate answer. It's basically like this, the GTVA thinks that shooting Shivans works, and that if you can shoot enough Shivans, they'll eventually stop coming. Which, given what we know about Shivan motivations and capabilities, is a deeply, deeply flawed but viscerally exciting way of doing business.

The GTVA's problem is that while they're excellent at shooting Shivans, they've subordinated every facet of their industry to, in one way or another, help shoot Shivans, to the detriment of research into other things that could be done.

[MatthTheGeek]

That's a different issue. The GTVA has beam tech, sure. The GTVA has corvette strike teams built around beam tech that can kill Destroyers in a heartbeat.
However, extrapolating what you see in the UEF across a hypothetical UEF that covers the entire GTVA is a very wrong thing to do.

Exactly. If the GTVA had come peacefully and the Ubuntu had spread to the whole GTVA, the GTVA-Ubuntu would have the whole GTVA and UEF technology and assets at their disposal. So the technological gap becomes here totally irrelevant.

Assumes facts not in evidence. To wit, that 80 Saths form a hard upper limit for the Shivans. The basic problem with fighting shivans is that noone knows what their capabilities are. They're giant space fleas from nowhere, there is no way to measure what their logistical capabilities are.

That too. the GTVA knows from the 14th battlegroup records that they have at least one Gigas Dante-class superjuggernauth. We don't even know if the GTVA fleet could even slow down such a thing - the situation is pretty much lost with even a single Dante. Now, add the fact that we don't even know how many of them they would send against us, nor if they don't have ships even larger and more powerful, and you'll get the point.

What other solutions are there?

That's what WiH2 and BP3 will be about dear sir. Wait and see.

[Buckshee Rounds]

Ninja'ed. Surely the vast amount of shipping, Gef raids and the unlikely possiblity of Shivan invasion is justification for a navy at all? I still believe the UEF have a rather small force relatively speaking when compated to Sol's military potential. Doesn't change the fact that though relatively small it's still a large fleet.

Yes, but subspace is the great equalizer. Response time for warships responding to an emergency is on the order of a few minutes across the entire system. The police is never more than a few minutes away, being a robber is remarkably less fun that way.

Alright, I'll agree that for it's stated job role the UEF navy is abnormally large and abnormally well-equipped. But taking into account the industrial capacity of Sol it could be several times larger still, but it isn't. If we're generous to a GTVA run by Ubuntu I can agree further and say they would adapt to the military needs accordingly, but they'd still have a much smaller overall fleet, because they simply aren't as militaristic as the GTVA. Contrasted against the Shivan threat that isn't a good thing.

If Ubuntu were to become the ruling power of humankind it would end up losing it's fundamental principles anyway. Just as you said it's a product of a very specific, very unique set of circumstances. Sol is a resource rich gem with only one major security issue (Gefs). Ubuntu isn't up to the task of governing more than a single star sytem, particularly several dozen, most of which are nowhere near as developed as Sol and have serious issues with security and poverty. I can't see a system of government ruling over a bunch of pampered kitten-lovers tackling the destitute wrecks of human colonies, it would surely collapse.

Ninja'ed thrice. Put down to brass tacks a Terran assembly led GTVA has a better chance of standing against the Shivans militarily than an Ubuntu led GTVA. I'm not saying the UEF can't fight Shivans I'm saying they won't fight them nearly as well or with nearly as many ships and personnel. Plus the aove reasons for poltical failure.

[The E]

If Ubuntu were to become the ruling power of humankind it would end up losing it's fundamental principles anyway. Just as you said it's a product of a very specific, very unique set of circumstances. Sol is a resource rich gem with only one major security issue (Gefs). Ubuntu isn't up to the task of governing more than a single star sytem, particularly several dozen, most of which are nowhere near as developed as Sol and have serious issues with security and poverty. I can't see a system of government ruling over a bunch of pampered kitten-lovers tackling the destitute wrecks of human colonies, it would surely collapse.

Ubuntu has gotten Sol out of a large economic and social crash following the node collapse. Saying that they wouldn't be up to the task of administrating a large interstellar community ignores several key points about Ubuntu, namely that one of its core principles is to never stop questioning their methods and altering them swiftly and decisively if they turn out to be rubbish.

Ninja'ed thrice. Put down to brass tacks a Terran assembly led GTVA has a better chance of standing against the Shivans militarily than an Ubuntu led GTVA. I'm not saying the UEF can't fight Shivans I'm saying they won't fight them nearly as well or with nearly as many ships and personnel. Plus the aove reasons for poltical failure.

Again, you are extrapolating. We don't know how the UEF would react if they were in the GTVA's shoes, assuming that they'd basically do the same thing that they did on Earth is fundamentally flawed.

Also, you keep saying that the UEF spends less on its military than the GTVA does. Fair enough, it's true, they do do that. There's a parallel here between the EU and the US. America spends billions on its military, while the countries spend a proportionately smaller amount. Now, Americans keep saying that us euro types can only afford to do so because of their spending. Which might be true. However, it may also be wrong. There is no way for us to know for certain.

[General Battuta]

Hem. May I please remind dev team members not to take sides too strongly. Players are encouraged to have their own opinions on the war and the strength of the two sides. 

And I do want to note that the Ubuntu socioeconomic models honed in Sol would not translate well to every system of the GTVA. There's significant risk of an administrative 'crash' in scaling up like that.

[Buckshee Rounds]

Ubuntu has gotten Sol out of a large economic and social crash following the node collapse. Saying that they wouldn't be up to the task of administrating a large interstellar community ignores several key points about Ubuntu, namely that one of its core principles is to never stop questioning their methods and altering them swiftly and decisively if they turn out to be rubbish.

Very true, but that was several years in the past. The UEF as it stands in the present (i.e. the future ) is governing over a fairly stable, fairly porsperous system. They'd have to adapt significantly to tackle the issues in impoverished human colonies, which are used to years of Terran assembly heavy-handedness and not Ubuntu's softer touch.

Also, you keep saying that the UEF spends less on its military than the GTVA does. Fair enough, it's true, they do do that. There's a parallel here between the EU and the US. America spends billions on its military, while the countries spend a proportionately smaller amount. Now, Americans keep saying that us euro types can only afford to do so because of their spending. Which might be true. However, it may also be wrong. There is no way for us to know for certain.

Again a true point, I'm not saying however that I know for certainty how such and such would pan out, it's simply an opinion, one I believe to be the most accurate but could easily be wrong.

Your example is a much different scenario though, the US has interests al over the globe to 'defend' and it's military has always traditionally been a political weight as much as a fighting force. We don't have the same amount of support for our militaries as they do, speaking in general of course. I could probably argue that the US could likely achieve it's standing deployments and it's operations with half the force it does now, a lot's to be said for a country having a big military especially when talking to other countries.

The GTVA has a large fleet because it's a part of their deal: we'll keep you safe and we'll do it because we have a lot of ships. Even if the populace knows it's now bullsh*t it's still a lot to know that there's an armada waiting to tackle the Shivans should they ever come knocking again. With the smaller forces an Ubuntu-GTVA would likely field the effect on the populace wouldn't be there.

Hem. May I please remind dev team members not to take sides too strongly. Players are encouraged to have their own opinions on the war and the strength of the two sides. 

And I do want to note that the Ubuntu socioeconomic models honed in Sol would not translate well to every system of the GTVA. There's significant risk of an administrative 'crash' in scaling up like that.

Ninja'ed. That's the thing though you really can't take any side strongly at all, it's grey on grey after all. I still symapthise for the UEF if only for their much fairer, much kinder Ubuntu than the Terran Assemly's muscle flexing.

EDIT: Spelling Ubuntu like Ubunut is really easy to do.

[Destiny]

Hem. May I please remind dev team members not to take sides too strongly. Players are encouraged to have their own opinions on the war and the strength of the two sides. 

And I do want to note that the Ubuntu socioeconomic models honed in Sol would not translate well to every system of the GTVA. There's significant risk of an administrative 'crash' in scaling up like that.

Ubuntu-led GTVA would be further compounded by dumb/annoying people like the Command guy head ani, especially. And Byrne, to a lesser extent. But your second point is what I quite relate to.

[Scotty]

Yeah, of course. Pacifists that have managed to resist to the GTVA ultra-advanced might for 18 months with a third of their forces. Riiiiiiiiiiight.

Nobody ever remembers that Severanti deliberately did not engage in high intensity combat.  If he did, the war would have been over quickly, and Earth's infrastructure would have been destroyed at far greater cost to both sides.

Plus, Jupiter is hardly full of pacifists.  That's 1st fleet, which didn't do much until the beginning of R1.

[General Battuta]

Yeah, of course. Pacifists that have managed to resist to the GTVA ultra-advanced might for 18 months with a third of their forces. Riiiiiiiiiiight.

Nobody ever remembers that Severanti deliberately did not engage in high intensity combat.  If he did, the war would have been over quickly

Well, I'm not sure that's clear. It certainly would have been a lot more bloody, but there were a lot of ways things could have gone wrong.

[PsychoLandlord]

Well, I'm not sure that's clear. It certainly would have been a lot more bloody, but there were a lot of ways things could have gone wrong.

Thats the nature of all warfare. As I see it, Severanti had a reasonable advantage there for a few weeks and he should have taken the initiative. Granted, this is hindsight talking, but I doubt he would've done any more damage to Earth's infrastructure then Steele did with his total war stance.

[Scotty]

Okay, I'll rephrase it to say "The war would have been over one way or another."  Either Earth would fall, or GTVA public support would evaporate.

Still, point remains that the main reason the buildup to WiH took 18 months is because Severanti adopted a cautious, relatively low intensity stratagem.

[MatthTheGeek]

Nobody ever remembers that Severanti deliberately did not engage in high intensity combat.  If he did, the war would have been over quickly, and Earth's infrastructure would have been destroyed at far greater cost to both sides.

And why do you think he had to adopt this stance ? That's because he got his battlegroup *****slapped in the face when he rushed to Neptune, thinking he was going to battle pacifists.

Severanti may be cautious, but Steele in his position wouldn't have been able to defeat 3 full fleets with a mere two battlegroups composed of Capella-era ships either.

[General Battuta]

Okay, I'll rephrase it to say "The war would have been over one way or another."  Either Earth would fall, or GTVA public support would evaporate.

Still, point remains that the main reason the buildup to WiH took 18 months is because Severanti adopted a cautious, relatively low intensity stratagem.

Sure, but the strategic realities made that a pretty good option. He cleared the underbrush, so to speak. Rushing in would have been a frightening prospect.

[Scotty]

Nobody ever remembers that Severanti deliberately did not engage in high intensity combat.  If he did, the war would have been over quickly, and Earth's infrastructure would have been destroyed at far greater cost to both sides.

And why do you think he had to adopt this stance ? That's because he got his battlegroup *****slapped in the face when he rushed to Neptune, thinking he was going to battle pacifists.

Severanti may be cautious, but Steele in his position wouldn't have been able to defeat 3 full fleets with a mere two battlegroups composed of Capella-era ships either.

He lost one, count it, ONE Deimos at Neptune.  The UEF lost two Karunas and four Sancti.  That rate of attrition is immensely favorable to the GTVA, considering that Deimos are rather plentiful in the GTVA battlegroups.

[Buckshee Rounds]

Okay, I'll rephrase it to say "The war would have been over one way or another."  Either Earth would fall, or GTVA public support would evaporate.

Still, point remains that the main reason the buildup to WiH took 18 months is because Severanti adopted a cautious, relatively low intensity stratagem.

Had 1st and 2nd Fleets gotten off their collective ar*ses they might even have pushed Sevveranti back through the node. Conversely had Steele been in charge from the outset he may very well have sent Calder reeling far in advance of R1. It is as you say though: hindsight. We can go back and say we should've rolled up armour before dropping paratroopers during Op Market Garden, but we didn't and WWII lasted for another year.

Holy hell, ninja'ed x3.

[Destiny]

Recalling from the BP website about the Ubuntu, UEF and etc etc., I think there are several reasons Severanti took it slowly. I think the 'suddenly being thrust into Sol in the midst of confusion' was the GTVA 4th Fleet, so that...isn't Severanti...hmm.

What's around Neptune anyway? What happened? Losing two Karunas and four Sanctus cruisers for a single Deimos?


Wow insane ninjaing.

[General Battuta]

Nobody ever remembers that Severanti deliberately did not engage in high intensity combat.  If he did, the war would have been over quickly, and Earth's infrastructure would have been destroyed at far greater cost to both sides.

And why do you think he had to adopt this stance ? That's because he got his battlegroup *****slapped in the face when he rushed to Neptune, thinking he was going to battle pacifists.

Severanti may be cautious, but Steele in his position wouldn't have been able to defeat 3 full fleets with a mere two battlegroups composed of Capella-era ships either.

He lost one, count it, ONE Deimos at Neptune.  The UEF lost two Karunas and four Sancti.  That rate of attrition is immensely favorable to the GTVA, considering that Deimos are rather plentiful in the GTVA battlegroups.

Yeah, but he got pretty close to losing his flagship, which wouldn't have been favorable at all.