[The E]

Being an armchair admiral is fun, isn't it.

The thing is, ramming might have worked.

If that had been the plan from the beginning.

Alas, it wasn't. The Wargods decided to hang back instead of continuing the charge; and when the Imperieuse showed up, the probability of a ramming maneuver succeeding was going down rapidly, due to the Imp's Ice Queen beams.

In addition, killing the Carthage but losing the Wargods in the process would have been a pyrrhic victory at best. As such, suicidal charges were never considered during mission planning, and were only brought back to the table once it was clear that other courses of action were no longer available.

[NGTM-1R]

1) The Carthage was already significantly damaged.
2) A Karuna is pretty big--not a destroyer, sure, but larger than any GTVA corvette. Couple that with the absurd number of Apocalypse antimatter torpedoes, flak munitions, and the reactor itself, and you get one hell of a punch (and bang).
3) The Karuna would be ramming at speeds around 60 m/s....that's considerable.
4) The Colossus skewered that Orion with heavy beams before it even got close. Not exactly much of a ramming attack (with poor speed, to boot).
5) Square-cubed law (IIRC) implies that the Colossus would be made out of (or built to be) far, far sturdier stuff than your average Orion. The attempted ramming was at the frontal armor of the ship, which is probably one of its thicker points.
6) I'm not sure you could even call it a ramming--I always got the impression that Koth's ship was largely gutted by beams before it really hit the Colossus (as in, it blew up before any real ramming occurred).
7) If at first you don't succeed...you've got a lot more options at your disposal. Another Karuna, and/or another Sanctus. And/or the rest of the task force just unloading into the crippled Carthage with Apocalypse spam, point-blank mass-driver shells, gauss cannon fire, and even some PDT and Burst Flak fire for the cherry on top.

1. Probably not relevant for the purposes of this discussion. I don't see huge chunks of it floating off so it's retaining most of its mass.

2. The front end of a Karuna (a lot of the front in fact) is mainly its two mass drivers. In overall size and overall mass it's at best the same. This also means that the part of the ship which will make contact is much more likely to crumple and absorb energy from the impact rather than remain rigid enough to transfer it.

Also assumes a complete lack of safety systems for the munitions, which is very much inconsistent with the need to handle ordnance safely. BP has consistently gone out of its way not to paint anyone as dumb. This ammunition is almost certainly all boresafe.

3. 60m/s still isn't that much.

4. Again, it's not like huge portions of the ship necessarily disappear.

5. Square-cube law applies only in consistent gravity. No, artificial gravity doesn't count, the mere fact they have it means they can futz with the specific gravity of any portion of the ship as they like. (Hell, there may not be reason to actually have gravity in large portions of the ship in combat, or even normally.)

6. While this is possible, the reality is it usually does make ramming contact and the mission is designed for it.

7. Ramming is by definition an option of last resort unless your ship is specifically designed for it. The Wargods are a major portion of the UEF's defense. They represent an asset years, possibly more, in the making, and are not to be sacrificed casually. If it is remotely possible to save the ships and crew then you should; only when it became clear this was no longer in the cards was ramming considered.

[redsniper]

Pretty sure Battuta said that he and the devs played out just about every possible scenario for DE. Like actually set it up and FRED and watched what happened. Attacking the Imperiuse turned out to be the best option. IIRC it worked well enough that they had to guardian the Imp's beam turrets or make them invulnerable or something to ensure that the Wargods lose consistently.

[NGTM-1R]

IIRC it worked well enough that they had to guardian the Imp's beam turrets or make them invulnerable or something to ensure that the Wargods lose consistently.

I think they had to do that to stop QD from taking them out more than that, but...

[Scotty]

Yeah, less about consistency and more about not allowing teh uberpilot to **** the mission up.

[Klaustrophobia]

i cringe every time a ramming attack is suggested in FS.  cap ships are just too damn slow for it to make any sense at all.

[LordPomposity]

i cringe every time a ramming attack is suggested in FS.  cap ships are just too damn slow for it to make any sense at all.

Not always--Tenderizer was by far the hardest mission in FS1 for me.

It's more that ramming doesn't make much sense when you're charging straight down the main fire arc of a destroyer capable of obliterating you in a single volley from well outside your own engagement range. At least six UEF captains don't seem to grasp the issue.

[Droid803]

i cringe every time a ramming attack is suggested in FS.  cap ships are just too damn slow for it to make any sense at all.

Not always--Tenderizer was by far the hardest mission in FS1 for me.

It's more that ramming doesn't make much sense when you're charging straight down the main fire arc of a destroyer capable of obliterating you in a single volley from well outside your own engagement range. At least six UEF captains don't seem to grasp the issue.

I think that's more of a "well this doesn't have a chance in hell of working but since we're going to die anyway we can hope they derp and forget to shoot us and even if they don't at least we bought some time because they shot at us and not someone else" than an honest attempt to do damage via ramming.

[Klaustrophobia]

i still tend to think staying at engagement range and lasting longer would provide better cover and probably do more damage to boot.  cruising slowly at them at 30 m/s doesn't demand any more focused response than attacking them with everything you have.

[NGTM-1R]

Not always--Tenderizer was by far the hardest mission in FS1 for me.

Tenderizer was pre-planned and pre-rigged for ramming attacks, though. It's not really the best example of effective off-the-cuff attempts when they go in having prepared.

[qwadtep]

i cringe every time a ramming attack is suggested in FS.  cap ships are just too damn slow for it to make any sense at all.

Capships are also big. Ramming isn't about speed, it's about crushing the target with your mass.

[Aesaar]

The Karuna has a crumple zone that takes up a third of the ship.  The front is basically two armor plates and some guns.  For all we know, the Orion is a very dense ship (looks very robust to me), and a Karuna might have just crumpled against the side and done nothing more than cause a few hull breaches.

[Kobrar44]

With all those warheads hot it would do better.

[Colonol Dekker]

Jury-rigged tenders with A/M payloads would be a better bet.

[Crybertrance]

Wish the UEF had the anti-subsystem thingie the GTI's R/D division (GTSc Giordano/Crazy Ivans ring a bell?) from ST:R. Would be EPIC, all those fighters lying there, helpless.

[MatthTheGeek]

It's probably less about having it or not and more about everything that was built since then being resistant to it. Technology and, specifically here, electronic warfare has evolved a whole lot since the STR times.

[The E]

Yeah, weapons like that are basically one-shot deals. You can use them once or twice, but once the opposition realizes what you did, they will seek ways to take that advantage away; in that specific case, I figure that GTI found a common vulnerability and built a weapon to exploit it.

[Aesaar]

The UEF never encountered the GTI mega-shutdown device.  Is it possible their fighters still have this vulnerability?

And if they did, would the GTVA think to exploit it?

[MatthTheGeek]

Most of the GTI data was in Sol before the isolation. Also, don't forget the UEF has the Shrike missile, which is way more dangerous than Tev's EM Pulse (or EMP missile ? I never remember which one is ST and which one is FS2). I'm pretty sure they have all the necessary EM defences to at least not be completely powered down at the first EM blast.

[crizza]

Uh, is there something like a timeline for the mission, like which battle/skirmish whatever was fought on which day,month, year?