[The E]

Indeed. Personally, I am pretty confident we can get R2 out the door eventually; it's BP3 that may be somewhat problematic. That said, it's something we're going to take a good long look at once R2 is done.

[sgtbeil]

Indeed. Personally, I am pretty confident we can get R2 out the door eventually; it's BP3 that may be somewhat problematic. That said, it's something we're going to take a good long look at once R2 is done.

Personally, ill respect every decision the team makes

[Generalgreen]

This by far has been the most heart breaking campaign I've ever played, not only in freespace, compared to any other campaign, Job well done guys.

[-Norbert-]

I'd like to ask questions regarding the TerSlashBlueAAA:
I don't know how effective it actually is ingame, but it does look pretty cool to see a ship equiped with them fire away at another capship (reminds me a lot of one faction in "Conquest Frontier Wars"), so I was wondering why it wasn't put on any ship and wether we'll see it show up in WiH2?
Is it, from a story point of view an actual seperate weapon, or is it an anti-capship beam reconfigured in the field to deal with enemy fighter swarms (much like the LRBGreen is supposed to be an overcharged BGreen)?

[MatthTheGeek]

so I was wondering why it wasn't put on any ship and wether we'll see it show up in WiH2?

Wrong. The Leviathans on the Carthage's battlegroup use TerSlashAAA. Some Deimos of the Carthage's battlegroup as well too, IIRC.

[SaltyWaffles]

I love you guys! You are all awesome.

I feel the same way about everyone on the dev team; the quality of your work is astounding in both intent and execution.

Though I will admit that I'm deeply exasperated at some of the discussions still going on. Ramming the Carthage would not have worked in a million billion years and I actually spent a ridiculous amount of development time making sure Delenda Est had to play out the way it did.

Erm...look, ramming or not, the question I was trying to convey was 'why not just take the Carthage down with you (and maybe just have the Indus and Yangtze retreat, though they could still spam their Apoc torpedoes while running) instead of rushing to knowingly commit suicide against the Imperieuse and Hydra?' The Wargods knew/believed strongly that killing the Carthage would have a dramatic political and morale impact on the war, beyond just killing a military asset, and they were certainly not afraid to die (Katana and Altan Orde were practically Death Seekers...), so why not take the certain major victory to balance out the certain major defeat instead of throwing away a major victory so that a certain major defeat wouldn't be quite as major (though the morale blow would still be huge)? Especially when it would probably divert the Imperieuse's attention far more effectively than lining up for a BBlue and MBlue shooting gallery at optimum range (did the Imperieuse even have to slow down?), a fleet carrier's fighter and bomber wings, dozens of pulse turrets, and salvos of Supernova torpedoes (can the TerSlashBlues also fire at them too? If so, it almost feels like overkill at that point).

Not that, of course, the mission itself wasn't a masterpiece of setting, mood/tone, unpredictable twists and turns with your emotions and expectations in the face of extraordinary risk and gain,  brilliant characterization/development/death, and spectacle. And music. THE MUSIC. And it still works plot-wise, this is more of a curiosity than anything.

-----


Also, I happened to finish up the first real 'mission'/map I tried making with FRED, and put a little bit of polish and tweaking into it in order to make it passable for use outside of my own. I'd largely forgotten about it for weeks/months, but now that my FRED 'skills'/knowledge have grown enough to make something functional, I thought I'd at least put the question out there--it's a quirky/humorous Tev guantlet mission that doubles as a playground for trying out various FS2, BP, and BP2 craft, weaponry, etc. Successive waves of common and advanced Tev fighters, many (and diverse) options for assistance in the reinforcements menu, a UEI Bretonnia instillation for some fun/cover/diversity, and way, way too many Starfox 64 jokes.

...come on, you know you've always wanted to see BALLSOFSTEELE Spacesuit kamikaze stealth warriors with Helios-scale special explosions upon death. You know you do.

Seriously, though, if there's any interest in trying it out, let me know. I'll figure out some way to host it, then (can I make it an attachment?).

[LordPomposity]

Though I will admit that I'm deeply exasperated at some of the discussions still going on. Ramming the Carthage would not have worked in a million billion years and I actually spent a ridiculous amount of development time making sure Delenda Est had to play out the way it did.

If we didn't love the game, we wouldn't still be analyzing one decision made by a tertiary character over two years after it was released. Nobody involved in that discussion thinks you or any of the other designers are lazy/idiots/whatever. I'm just of the opinion that the decision to charge the Imperieuse works quite well as a questionable judgement call on the part of a UEF captain who had a case of survivor's guilt and placed a higher value on saving his comrades than killing his enemies. Intended or not, there's plenty in the game to back that interpretation up.

So, congratulations, you wrote a complex and compelling story with lots of room for interpretation and believable, fallible, human, characters. Now go back to feeling exasperated with me for thinking that.

[General Battuta]

Erm...look, ramming or not, the question I was trying to convey was 'why not just take the Carthage down with you (and maybe just have the Indus and Yangtze retreat, though they could still spam their Apoc torpedoes while running) instead of rushing to knowingly commit suicide against the Imperieuse and Hydra?'

It's not knowing suicide. In fact, in early versions of the mission, before the Imperieuse got her fighter screen and more armor on her forward beams, the Wargods would routinely shoot out her spinal emitters, get abeam, and torpedo her to death. Attacking the Imperieuse was their only chance at mission success.

The Wargods knew/believed strongly that killing the Carthage would have a dramatic political and morale impact on the war, beyond just killing a military asset, and they were certainly not afraid to die (Katana and Altan Orde were practically Death Seekers...), so why not take the certain major victory to balance out the certain major defeat instead of throwing away a major victory so that a certain major defeat wouldn't be quite as major (though the morale blow would still be huge)? Especially when it would probably divert the Imperieuse's attention far more effectively than lining up for a BBlue and MBlue shooting gallery at optimum range (did the Imperieuse even have to slow down?), a fleet carrier's fighter and bomber wings, dozens of pulse turrets, and salvos of Supernova torpedoes (can the TerSlashBlues also fire at them too? If so, it almost feels like overkill at that point).

Killing the Carthage doesn't do the UEF much good unless the Wargods get away without heavy losses. Remember that much of the mission's intended impact is political, both among the GTVA populace and its leadership. 'Steele ****s up and loses a storied destroyer' gets him sacked and stirs up already pretty virulent doubt. But a narrative where the veteran GTD Carthage goes down in take-no-prisoners battle against fanatical UEF hunter-killers, bloodying them badly in the process, doesn't achieve that.

This is all kind of beside the point, though. The Wargods simply did not have the firepower to kill the Carthage before the enemy was upon them (the mission was carefully designed to ensure this*). The Katana and Altan Orde likely did not have the speed to escape the Imperieuse's beam envelope before they were destroyed, or at least before taking a crippling hit to the engines (the mission was carefully designed to ensure this*). The optimal decision, political considerations aside, was to attempt to disable the Imperieuse and its escorts.

*I leave the asterisk here because all this tuning was done before literal months of balance adjustment and finessed timing, so it's actually possible a lot of this broke. But it should hold.

I believe I still have a version of the mission saved where the Imperieuse never arrives and the Wargods succeed, another where they attempt to destroy the Carthage instead of the Imperieuse (and get massacred), and another where all four frigates try to run and get shot to **** by a combination of beam fire and the Silver Scythes (who normally spend that battle attacking the Katana and AO).

I'm just of the opinion that the decision to charge the Imperieuse works quite well as a questionable judgement call on the part of a UEF captain who had a case of survivor's guilt and placed a higher value on saving his comrades than killing his enemies. Intended or not, there's plenty in the game to back that interpretation up.

And yeah, I should've mentioned that The Blade Itself was really intended to bring out the character side of this decision. It's a shame most people probably play it after Delenda Est - but on the other hand maybe it's best that way.

[SaltyWaffles]

Killing the Carthage doesn't do the UEF much good unless the Wargods get away without heavy losses. Remember that much of the mission's intended impact is political, both among the GTVA populace and its leadership. 'Steele ****s up and loses a storied destroyer' gets him sacked and stirs up already pretty virulent doubt. But a narrative where the veteran GTD Carthage goes down in take-no-prisoners battle against fanatical UEF hunter-killers, bloodying them badly in the process, doesn't achieve that.

This is all kind of beside the point, though. The Wargods simply did not have the firepower to kill the Carthage before the enemy was upon them (the mission was carefully designed to ensure this*). The Katana and Altan Orde likely did not have the speed to escape the Imperieuse's beam envelope before they were destroyed, or at least before taking a crippling hit to the engines (the mission was carefully designed to ensure this*). The optimal decision, political considerations aside, was to attempt to disable the Imperieuse and its escorts.

*I leave the asterisk here because all this tuning was done before literal months of balance adjustment and finessed timing, so it's actually possible a lot of this broke. But it should hold.

I believe I still have a version of the mission saved where the Imperieuse never arrives and the Wargods succeed, another where they attempt to destroy the Carthage instead of the Imperieuse (and get massacred), and another where all four frigates try to run and get shot to **** by a combination of beam fire and the Silver Scythes (who normally spend that battle attacking the Katana and AO).

Ah; this helps a great deal. I never experienced DE in its original, intended form--from 50 absurdly unsuccessful attempts back when it was dual-bugged (Armageddon bombers and Karuna suicides) to the 'still need to use cheats to ensure Katana and Altan Orde don't blow themselves up 'till the Imperieuse arrives' approach, I never could get a clear picture of that very fine 'plot-target' you were aiming for. Thank you for clearing that up.

Though...I'm having a hard time picturing the exact look of a situation where TF Wargods can't kill the Carthage before getting destroyed themselves by the Imperieuse. Between 4 Karunas' worth of mass drivers, gauss cannons, Apoc torp spam, and 2 Sanctus' worth of mass drivers, gauss cannons, Warhammer spam, and all the collective point defense turrets and burst flaks...that's a lot of firepower. Isn't the Carthage normally at least down to 75% hull before the Imperieuse even shows up? Even for the upgrades the Carthage has over a typical Orion, it's hard to imagine her taking a beating like that for very long at all.

[General Battuta]

I don't know why that mission has gotten so screwy. It was so close to perfect at patch 1.1. Maybe it's a framerate thing.

[TwentyPercentCooler]

I don't know why that mission has gotten so screwy. It was so close to perfect at patch 1.1. Maybe it's a framerate thing.

Well, you and the BP team have always admitted it was on the razor's edge, balance-wise. I'm actually surprised that that Wargods would neuter and kill the Imp without plot armor. I haven't played DE in a while; guess it's time to give it a try to see if I spot anything funky.

[LordPomposity]

Though...I'm having a hard time picturing the exact look of a situation where TF Wargods can't kill the Carthage before getting destroyed themselves by the Imperieuse. Between 4 Karunas' worth of mass drivers, gauss cannons, Apoc torp spam, and 2 Sanctus' worth of mass drivers, gauss cannons, Warhammer spam, and all the collective point defense turrets and burst flaks...that's a lot of firepower. Isn't the Carthage normally at least down to 75% hull before the Imperieuse even shows up? Even for the upgrades the Carthage has over a typical Orion, it's hard to imagine her taking a beating like that for very long at all.

Armor, damage control, and the like. In the same mission, the Indus and Yangtze both receive a heavier armor class after they've taken some damage, and get substantial numbers of hit points restored in-mission. The Carthage can play by the same rules--just because hull integrity is at 75% doesn't mean the job is a quarter of the way done.

The Wargods' only hope would be to use their superior speed and maneuverability to keep the Carthage interposed between themselves and the Imperieuse. They'd still have the Hydra and lots of bomber wings to contend with, plus the Carthage's own beams, and at any rate, we've had about two years longer than the five seconds or so that Gennady had to come up with a plan.

[redsniper]

Pretty sure Battuta said that he and the devs played out just about every possible scenario for DE. Like actually set it up and FRED and watched what happened. Attacking the Imperiuse turned out to be the best option. IIRC it worked well enough that they had to guardian the Imp's beam turrets or make them invulnerable or something to ensure that the Wargods lose consistently.

I tried to tell 'em.

...Wargods can't kill the Carthage before getting destroyed themselves...

Nah, they could. It's just that...

Killing the Carthage doesn't do the UEF much good unless the Wargods get away without heavy losses. Remember that much of the mission's intended impact is political, both among the GTVA populace and its leadership. 'Steele ****s up and loses a storied destroyer' gets him sacked and stirs up already pretty virulent doubt. But a narrative where the veteran GTD Carthage goes down in take-no-prisoners battle against fanatical UEF hunter-killers, bloodying them badly in the process, doesn't achieve that.

Also,

It's not knowing suicide. In fact, in early versions of the mission, before the Imperieuse got her fighter screen and more armor on her forward beams, the Wargods would routinely shoot out her spinal emitters, get abeam, and torpedo her to death. Attacking the Imperieuse was their only chance at mission success.

This is the version of DE we play after the Vishnans take Laporte on her vision quest or whatever and then they go back in time to save the War in Heaven.

[LordPomposity]

It's not knowing suicide. In fact, in early versions of the mission, before the Imperieuse got her fighter screen and more armor on her forward beams, the Wargods would routinely shoot out her spinal emitters, get abeam, and torpedo her to death. Attacking the Imperieuse was their only chance at mission success.

This is the version of DE we play after the Vishnans take Laporte on her vision quest or whatever and then they go back in time to save the War in Heaven.

Already done in "Serch for Bosh Valintine's day Special."

[Black_Yoshi1230]

On a technical note... has anyone noticed their Support Ship has been flying like their operator is on speed or something?

[attachment removed and sold on the black market]

[Aesaar]

The Aranyaka behaves really weirdly, yes.  Ridiculously high speed and moves in great big circles.

I think it's to compensate for the fact that during the bigger missions like Aristeia and Delenda Est, supply ships would often be left kilometers away from you because the battlespace moves around so much.

[General Battuta]

Laporte ship on station

(We should go back and add in SEXPs that allow like four support ships to be present at once. Love that ****)

[Darius]

It's a path issue in the pof. Been going through and fixing them where they pop up, should be ok by the next update.

[Master_of_the_blade]

I was going through the moddb page and I came across

Now it doesn't look like this in my game. I've post processing and the latest shaders but mine looks like a bright white-yellow ball with sunspots.

[An4ximandros]

 Am I the only one who want's to see Simms die in WiH P2?
 Seriously, I'd love to see Laporte's sanity slip away as she becomes obsessed with vengeance.
 Come on! Those flashbacks to her childhood totally imply a grimdark only war future!

Master: I think it's just a photoshop for a wallpaper, I don't recall it looking like that either.